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    • Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote: I think Viktor had been a vampire for quite a while when Sonja was born, and I can’t imagine him taking a human wife.

      It’s probably best to go with “brother/sister though a common sire.” It would be cool to have a single word, but it seems like most people should understand that phrase. Unless somebody thinks of some awesome word that I don’t know about.

      We could list Viktor and Lucian as Eve’s family members, but what would we call them? Grandsires? Adoptive grandfather, in Viktor’s case?

      True, probably just another plot hole :/

      Can't think of any single word/ shorter option atm, unless you want to go with your suggestion in the 'Bloody Word Wars' discussion thread of grafted siblings?

      Grandsires doesn't sound too bad, better than something like 'Sire once removed' :)

      I don't know that it's a plot hole. Maybe just an odd choice of words.

      I'm not sure that "grafted siblings" makes sense. It was an idea, but after our earlier discussion about that, I don't think that transgenic parenting (?) really works that way anyway. The phrase you came up with should be understandable to most people.

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote: I got my ticket for Blood Wars, Friday afternoon.

      How was it?  :)

      (It's early evening here, just in case I'm asking before you've seen it :) )

      I liked it! I suppose I had lowered my expectations after all of the reviews and spoilers we've seen, but I definitely enjoyed it. I'd put it on par with Evolution. Not as good as the first film, but worth watching, and definitely better than Awakening.

      And the notes I wrote in the dark are readable. :p

      The one plot point that doesn't make sense to me is that Marius didn't seem all that interested in Selene's blood. He defeated her at the Nordic Coven, she jumped into the lake and died, and he saw where she was. So then... he shrugged it off and enacted Plan B. And that is a plot point that I hadn't heard before: Marius and his army were able to get into the Eastern Coven after that pretty easily because Alexia disabled the castle's defenses.

      Alexia had been in a relationship with one of the vampires working castle security. Upon her return, she went into his monitor room, put her hands on his shoulders, and then broke his neck. She then disabled the perimeter defenses. No one noticed, and within a few hours, Marius and his army were at the gate. So it turns out that Marius had a backup plan all along, which he enacted when it became clear that he was never going to find Eve. But still, why didn't he take Selene's blood?

      Alexia was a very interesting character who got a fair amount of screen time, despite her near-total absence from the trailers. But Marius seemed a bit flat. They never properly explored his motivations or backstory. They also barely touched on his relationship with Alexia. Alexia seemed to truly care about him, and Marius said that he loved her and he never treated her poorly. But it's hard to know how he really felt, since they spent very little time together in the film.

      I never saw Fabian.

      Marius mentioned several locations (cities, I imagine) that the lycans had taken from the vampires, but the names were foreign and I didn't know how to write them down. Once I can check the subtitles on the DVD, that should give an approximate location for the Eastern Castle.

      The all-black wardrobe of the Eastern Castle was interesting, but it started to feel like they were all sort of goth. I really liked the Nordic Coven and their all-white clothing and castle.

      Lara Pulver was excellent. :D Semira was very interesting.

      They never once named the female council member. :-/ For that matter, I don't think they named Istvan or Hajna either.

      Eve looked quite a bit like India Eisley. Michael did not especially look like Scott Speedman (I know Michael was played by someone else). I could believe that Eve really was India Eisley in an uncredited appearance, or at least a good lookalike.

      The end of the film is not entirely clear, but I think Lena is the third Elder. Selene said that there were three new Elders, and then the camera immediately focused on Lena and showed her drinking the blood. Other people from the Nordic Coven drank it too, and I don't know why.

      I'm sure I'll have more thoughts later, but this is awfully long already. :p

      Oh, and Lena is telepathic. One of the powers gained from repeated trips to the... other world. I forgot the name, and didn't write it down! The afterlife, but that's not what they called it.

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    • About the rumors of David getting together with Selene: from his words and actions, he is clearly fond of her, but I don't think it's romantic at all. He said that Selene is important to him when he and Selene both thought that Michael was alive. He acts like she is a good friend and mentor, but that's all I saw in it. And Selene was clearly still involved with Michael, since she thought he was alive for most of the film.

      Semira flirted with David a few times, but David explicitly denied any interest in her.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote: About the rumors of David getting together with Selene: from his words and actions, he is clearly fond of her, but I don't think it's romantic at all. He said that Selene is important to him when he and Selene both thought that Michael was alive. He acts like she is a good friend and mentor, but that's all I saw in it. And Selene was clearly still involved with Michael, since she thought he was alive for most of the film.

      Semira flirted with David a few times, but David explicitly denied any interest in her.

      I hope Michael returns alive.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote: And that is a plot point that I hadn't heard before: Marius and his army were able to get into the Eastern Coven after that pretty easily because Alexia disabled the castle's defenses.

      Now I see that that information was already on our Alexia page.

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    • Which vampires did we see standing in daylight? Our Lena page says that she's a hybrid, but do we have any evidence of that? I can't remember seeing any of the Nordic vampires fighting in direct sunlight.

      The Nordic vampires arrived at the Eastern Coven during the daytime, but the room they were in wasn't completely exposed to sunlight. Varga managed to keep fighting simply by staying in the shadows. Selene and her reinforcements could have traveled in a vehicle with no windows. If the Eastern Castle has any garages or loading ramps, they could have entered the castle without ever being exposed to sunlight.

      As for Alexia, she tasted Selene's blood, but I think it's likely that she didn't drink enough to become a hybrid. Selene drank a drop of Marius's blood and didn't become a vampire-lycan hybrid.

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    • This thread seems a bit sleepy...

      Was it ever daytime at the Nordic Coven? Perhaps it was above the Arctic Circle during the winter, so the sun wasn’t up much.

      It occurred to me the other day that Eve is now the child of an Elder. That would normally make her next in line to be a new Elder, although her lycan blood would have been a problem under the previous reign. But now that Selene and David are Elders, the vampires finally have leadership that is sympathetic to the lycans.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote: This thread seems a bit sleepy...

      Was it ever daytime at the Nordic Coven? Perhaps it was above the Arctic Circle during the winter, so the sun wasn’t up much.

      It occurred to me the other day that Eve is now the child of an Elder. That would normally make her next in line to be a new Elder, although her lycan blood would have been a problem under the previous reign. But now that Selene and David are Elders, the vampires finally have leadership that is sympathetic to the lycans.

      Sympathetic Elders mean that Michael could be accepted into the new Covin should he return. And actually Yellowantphil there are parts of the world where it never gets light during the winter.

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    • The ending was confusing. Whose blood was in those jars that they were they drinking, anyway? The previous Elders? Selene's? Couldn't have been her's, why would she drink her own blood?

      And I don't think Lena was a Hybrid, at least they didn't give us enough evidence on it. And why she became an Elder if her father Vidar is their coven leader and is still alive?

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:
      This thread seems a bit sleepy...

      Was it ever daytime at the Nordic Coven? Perhaps it was above the Arctic Circle during the winter, so the sun wasn’t up much.

      It occurred to me the other day that Eve is now the child of an Elder. That would normally make her next in line to be a new Elder, although her lycan blood would have been a problem under the previous reign. But now that Selene and David are Elders, the vampires finally have leadership that is sympathetic to the lycans.

      Had a few awkward shifts at work so haven't really been online much, hence the lack of posts from me :/

      While Selene and David may be more sympathetic towards Lycans that their predecessors, I'm not convinced that their sympathy will really extend beyond Eve :/

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    • Hulk10 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote: This thread seems a bit sleepy...

      Was it ever daytime at the Nordic Coven? Perhaps it was above the Arctic Circle during the winter, so the sun wasn’t up much.

      It occurred to me the other day that Eve is now the child of an Elder. That would normally make her next in line to be a new Elder, although her lycan blood would have been a problem under the previous reign. But now that Selene and David are Elders, the vampires finally have leadership that is sympathetic to the lycans.

      Sympathetic Elders mean that Michael could be accepted into the new Covin should he return. And actually Yellowantphil there are parts of the world where it never gets light during the winter.

      Even if Michael is alive (I still think that this is highly unlikely) then there's no guarantee that he would want to join the coven, or that the rest of the coven would be willing to accept him as one of their own; I would've thought that most would barely tolerate him and then only because they would view him as a pet of sorts of Selene's and they're not stupid enough to cross her by openly objecting to Michael's presence.

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    • Got my ticket :) 

      Seeing Blood Wars on Friday night :)

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote: This thread seems a bit sleepy...

      Was it ever daytime at the Nordic Coven? Perhaps it was above the Arctic Circle during the winter, so the sun wasn’t up much.

      It occurred to me the other day that Eve is now the child of an Elder. That would normally make her next in line to be a new Elder, although her lycan blood would have been a problem under the previous reign. But now that Selene and David are Elders, the vampires finally have leadership that is sympathetic to the lycans.

      Sympathetic Elders mean that Michael could be accepted into the new Covin should he return. And actually Yellowantphil there are parts of the world where it never gets light during the winter.

      Even if Michael is alive (I still think that this is highly unlikely) then there's no guarantee that he would want to join the coven, or that the rest of the coven would be willing to accept him as one of their own; I would've thought that most would barely tolerate him and then only because they would view him as a pet of sorts of Selene's and they're not stupid enough to cross her by openly objecting to Michael's presence.

      We have no proof of them not tolerating him. I think they would accept him. They would have no choice.

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    • Hulk10 wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote: This thread seems a bit sleepy...

      Was it ever daytime at the Nordic Coven? Perhaps it was above the Arctic Circle during the winter, so the sun wasn’t up much.

      It occurred to me the other day that Eve is now the child of an Elder. That would normally make her next in line to be a new Elder, although her lycan blood would have been a problem under the previous reign. But now that Selene and David are Elders, the vampires finally have leadership that is sympathetic to the lycans.

      Sympathetic Elders mean that Michael could be accepted into the new Covin should he return. And actually Yellowantphil there are parts of the world where it never gets light during the winter.
      Even if Michael is alive (I still think that this is highly unlikely) then there's no guarantee that he would want to join the coven, or that the rest of the coven would be willing to accept him as one of their own; I would've thought that most would barely tolerate him and then only because they would view him as a pet of sorts of Selene's and they're not stupid enough to cross her by openly objecting to Michael's presence.
      We have no proof of them not tolerating him. I think they would accept him. They would have no choice.

      I would've thought that Erika's reaction in the first film would be typical of most vampires, if not on the more mild end of the scale. Even though Erika was very young for a vampire she still knew enough of Lycans to hate and fear them; most of the vampires in the remaining coven(s) are much older than Erika so most will likely feel no need to fear a Lycan (or Hybrid) but most will still hate them simply because that hatred is so ingrained in thier psyches. So far the only vampires we've seen that don't hate Lycans are Selene and Sonja; admittedly some are likely more tolerant than others but the more tolerant vampires seem to be in a very small minority.

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote: This thread seems a bit sleepy...

      Was it ever daytime at the Nordic Coven? Perhaps it was above the Arctic Circle during the winter, so the sun wasn’t up much.

      It occurred to me the other day that Eve is now the child of an Elder. That would normally make her next in line to be a new Elder, although her lycan blood would have been a problem under the previous reign. But now that Selene and David are Elders, the vampires finally have leadership that is sympathetic to the lycans.

      Sympathetic Elders mean that Michael could be accepted into the new Covin should he return. And actually Yellowantphil there are parts of the world where it never gets light during the winter.
      Even if Michael is alive (I still think that this is highly unlikely) then there's no guarantee that he would want to join the coven, or that the rest of the coven would be willing to accept him as one of their own; I would've thought that most would barely tolerate him and then only because they would view him as a pet of sorts of Selene's and they're not stupid enough to cross her by openly objecting to Michael's presence.
      We have no proof of them not tolerating him. I think they would accept him. They would have no choice.

      I would've thought that Erika's reaction in the first film would be typical of most vampires, if not on the more mild end of the scale. Even though Erika was very young for a vampire she still knew enough of Lycans to hate and fear them; most of the vampires in the remaining coven(s) are much older than Erika so most will likely feel no need to fear a Lycan (or Hybrid) but most will still hate them simply because that hatred is so ingrained in thier psyches. So far the only vampires we've seen that don't hate Lycans are Selene and Sonja; admittedly some are likely more tolerant than others but the more tolerant vampires seem to be in a very small minority.

      True but Michael isn't a Lycan. Neither is Eve.

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    • Hulk10 wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:


      Hulk10 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote: This thread seems a bit sleepy...

      Was it ever daytime at the Nordic Coven? Perhaps it was above the Arctic Circle during the winter, so the sun wasn’t up much.

      It occurred to me the other day that Eve is now the child of an Elder. That would normally make her next in line to be a new Elder, although her lycan blood would have been a problem under the previous reign. But now that Selene and David are Elders, the vampires finally have leadership that is sympathetic to the lycans.

      Sympathetic Elders mean that Michael could be accepted into the new Covin should he return. And actually Yellowantphil there are parts of the world where it never gets light during the winter.
      Even if Michael is alive (I still think that this is highly unlikely) then there's no guarantee that he would want to join the coven, or that the rest of the coven would be willing to accept him as one of their own; I would've thought that most would barely tolerate him and then only because they would view him as a pet of sorts of Selene's and they're not stupid enough to cross her by openly objecting to Michael's presence.
      We have no proof of them not tolerating him. I think they would accept him. They would have no choice.
      I would've thought that Erika's reaction in the first film would be typical of most vampires, if not on the more mild end of the scale. Even though Erika was very young for a vampire she still knew enough of Lycans to hate and fear them; most of the vampires in the remaining coven(s) are much older than Erika so most will likely feel no need to fear a Lycan (or Hybrid) but most will still hate them simply because that hatred is so ingrained in thier psyches. So far the only vampires we've seen that don't hate Lycans are Selene and Sonja; admittedly some are likely more tolerant than others but the more tolerant vampires seem to be in a very small minority.
      True but Michael isn't a Lycan. Neither is Eve.

      Most vampire's probably wouldn't have any kind of problem with Eve, partially because genetically speaking she's predominantly vampire anyway and partially because it's her blood that holds the key to daywalking. Michael may not be a Lycan but he is a Lycan-dominant Hybrid, which given some vampire's disdain for Hybrids could potentially seen as being worse than just being a Lycan.

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:


      Hulk10 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote: This thread seems a bit sleepy...

      Was it ever daytime at the Nordic Coven? Perhaps it was above the Arctic Circle during the winter, so the sun wasn’t up much.

      It occurred to me the other day that Eve is now the child of an Elder. That would normally make her next in line to be a new Elder, although her lycan blood would have been a problem under the previous reign. But now that Selene and David are Elders, the vampires finally have leadership that is sympathetic to the lycans.

      Sympathetic Elders mean that Michael could be accepted into the new Covin should he return. And actually Yellowantphil there are parts of the world where it never gets light during the winter.
      Even if Michael is alive (I still think that this is highly unlikely) then there's no guarantee that he would want to join the coven, or that the rest of the coven would be willing to accept him as one of their own; I would've thought that most would barely tolerate him and then only because they would view him as a pet of sorts of Selene's and they're not stupid enough to cross her by openly objecting to Michael's presence.
      We have no proof of them not tolerating him. I think they would accept him. They would have no choice.
      I would've thought that Erika's reaction in the first film would be typical of most vampires, if not on the more mild end of the scale. Even though Erika was very young for a vampire she still knew enough of Lycans to hate and fear them; most of the vampires in the remaining coven(s) are much older than Erika so most will likely feel no need to fear a Lycan (or Hybrid) but most will still hate them simply because that hatred is so ingrained in thier psyches. So far the only vampires we've seen that don't hate Lycans are Selene and Sonja; admittedly some are likely more tolerant than others but the more tolerant vampires seem to be in a very small minority.
      True but Michael isn't a Lycan. Neither is Eve.

      Most vampire's probably wouldn't have any kind of problem with Eve, partially because genetically speaking she's predominantly vampire anyway and partially because it's her blood that holds the key to daywalking. Michael may not be a Lycan but he is a Lycan-dominant Hybrid, which given some vampire's disdain for Hybrids could potentially seen as being worse than just being a Lycan.

      Not likely. Viktor was the only vampire who absolutely hated Hybrids.

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    • Hulk10 wrote: And actually Yellowantphil there are parts of the world where it never gets light during the winter.

      Yes, that’s why I’m curious whether the film ever showed the Nordic Coven in sunlight. I don’t remember seeing any sunlight there, but I wasn’t watching for that. And even the nights outdoors seemed fairly bright. Several reviewers said that the film was far too dark, but if anything, I feel like the night scenes were too light.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote: And actually Yellowantphil there are parts of the world where it never gets light during the winter.

      Yes, that’s why I’m curious whether the film ever showed the Nordic Coven in sunlight. I don’t remember seeing any sunlight there, but I wasn’t watching for that. And even the nights outdoors seemed fairly bright. Several reviewers said that the film was far too dark, but if anything, I feel like the night scenes were too light.

      Yeah but that is because the cameras need lots of light.

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    • TrinityOverlord wrote: The ending was confusing. Whose blood was in those jars that they were they drinking, anyway? The previous Elders? Selene's? Couldn't have been her's, why would she drink her own blood?

      And I don't think Lena was a Hybrid, at least they didn't give us enough evidence on it. And why she became an Elder if her father Vidar is their coven leader and is still alive?

      I read an explanation on the IMDb forums that I like: there was nothing special about the blood they were drinking at the end of the film. It was just part of a ceremony to confirm the new Elders.

      I also thought it was odd that Lena became a hybrid rather than Vidar, but perhaps Vidar opted out, choosing to return to the Nordic Coven and live the way he always has.

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote:
      It occurred to me the other day that Eve is now the child of an Elder. That would normally make her next in line to be a new Elder, although her lycan blood would have been a problem under the previous reign. But now that Selene and David are Elders, the vampires finally have leadership that is sympathetic to the lycans.

      Had a few awkward shifts at work so haven't really been online much, hence the lack of posts from me :/

      While Selene and David may be more sympathetic towards Lycans that their predecessors, I'm not convinced that their sympathy will really extend beyond Eve :/

      You’re alive! \o/

      Well, I don’t expect any of the new Elders to institute Hug a Lycan Day anytime soon, but I think that all three of them are likely to support a more lycan-tolerant policy than their predecessors. Even if the average vampire reluctantly tolerates the lycans and grudgingly accepts any resident hybrids, that’s still better than the covens were under Viktor. Baby steps. :D

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: Got my ticket :) 

      Seeing Blood Wars on Friday night :)

      Awesome! Let us know what you think.

      I’m resisting the temptation to ask you to watch for things that I missed and take notes. :p

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote:
      It occurred to me the other day that Eve is now the child of an Elder. That would normally make her next in line to be a new Elder, although her lycan blood would have been a problem under the previous reign. But now that Selene and David are Elders, the vampires finally have leadership that is sympathetic to the lycans.

      Had a few awkward shifts at work so haven't really been online much, hence the lack of posts from me :/

      While Selene and David may be more sympathetic towards Lycans that their predecessors, I'm not convinced that their sympathy will really extend beyond Eve :/

      You’re alive! \o/

      Well, I don’t expect any of the new Elders to institute Hug a Lycan Day anytime soon, but I think that all three of them are likely to support a more lycan-tolerant policy than their predecessors. Even if the average vampire reluctantly tolerates the lycans and grudgingly accepts any resident hybrids, that’s still better than the covens were under Viktor. Baby steps. :D

      I agree with that.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: Got my ticket :) 

      Seeing Blood Wars on Friday night :)

      Awesome! Let us know what you think.

      I’m resisting the temptation to ask you to watch for things that I missed and take notes. :p

      I'll try and post any thoughts/opinions either Friday night after I've seen or it on Saturday morning (can't post it Saturday evening as I'm working, which means I'll probably spend like half of Sunday like a zombie and then I'm seeing the Sherlock Season 4 finale at the cinema in the evening) :)

      My local cinema is really dark, too dark to take notes unfortunately :/  but I'm happy to keep my eye out for specific things, just let me know what you want me to keep an eye out for :)

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote:
      It occurred to me the other day that Eve is now the child of an Elder. That would normally make her next in line to be a new Elder, although her lycan blood would have been a problem under the previous reign. But now that Selene and David are Elders, the vampires finally have leadership that is sympathetic to the lycans.
      Had a few awkward shifts at work so haven't really been online much, hence the lack of posts from me :/

      While Selene and David may be more sympathetic towards Lycans that their predecessors, I'm not convinced that their sympathy will really extend beyond Eve :/

      You’re alive! \o/

      Well, I don’t expect any of the new Elders to institute Hug a Lycan Day anytime soon, but I think that all three of them are likely to support a more lycan-tolerant policy than their predecessors. Even if the average vampire reluctantly tolerates the lycans and grudgingly accepts any resident hybrids, that’s still better than the covens were under Viktor. Baby steps. :D

      True; then again pretty much everyone is more tolerant than Viktor :P

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: I'll try and post any thoughts/opinions either Friday night after I've seen or it on Saturday morning (can't post it Saturday evening as I'm working, which means I'll probably spend like half of Sunday like a zombie and then I'm seeing the Sherlock Season 4 finale at the cinema in the evening) :)

      My local cinema is really dark, too dark to take notes unfortunately :/  but I'm happy to keep my eye out for specific things, just let me know what you want me to keep an eye out for :)

      I couldn't see my notepad at all, but that didn't stop me from taking notes. :p I only wrote on top of my previous notes once...

      Well, if you happen to notice it, could you tell me if any Nordic vampires are ever seen in direct daylight?

      You have a cinema that plays TV shows?

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: True; then again pretty much everyone is more tolerant than Viktor :P

      Good point... trying to be more tolerant than Viktor would be setting your sights pretty low. :p

      After Marius was dead, David called out to the remaining lycans and said something to the effect of, "you leave us alone and we'll leave you alone" (not at all an exact quote). Lena is a pacifist, and Selene is absolutely tired of war, and she once fell in love with a lycan, so... I think the chances for peace are genuinely improved after this film.

      I could see Cassius passively opposing Selene in the future the way that Coloman defied Viktor from time to time, since Cassius was strongly opposed to sparing Selene before she became an Elder. Vampire politics are always interesting. \o/

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: I'll try and post any thoughts/opinions either Friday night after I've seen or it on Saturday morning (can't post it Saturday evening as I'm working, which means I'll probably spend like half of Sunday like a zombie and then I'm seeing the Sherlock Season 4 finale at the cinema in the evening) :)

      My local cinema is really dark, too dark to take notes unfortunately :/  but I'm happy to keep my eye out for specific things, just let me know what you want me to keep an eye out for :)

      I couldn't see my notepad at all, but that didn't stop me from taking notes. :p I only wrote on top of my previous notes once...

      Well, if you happen to notice it, could you tell me if any Nordic vampires are ever seen in direct daylight?

      You have a cinema that plays TV shows?

      I'll keep an eye out for that :)

      Kind of, every so often one of the tv networks will do a cinema simulcast of an episode of one of their biggest shows, it's usually something like the season opener or finale or a holiday special and more often than not it's Doctor Who. Sometimes we get some filmed theatre productions too :)

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: True; then again pretty much everyone is more tolerant than Viktor :P

      Good point... trying to be more tolerant than Viktor would be setting your sights pretty low. :p

      After Marius was dead, David called out to the remaining lycans and said something to the effect of, "you leave us alone and we'll leave you alone" (not at all an exact quote). Lena is a pacifist, and Selene is absolutely tired of war, and she once fell in love with a lycan, so... I think the chances for peace are genuinely improved after this film.

      I could see Cassius passively opposing Selene in the future the way that Coloman defied Viktor from time to time, since Cassius was strongly opposed to sparing Selene before she became an Elder. Vampire politics are always interesting. \o/

      There's definitely a better chance at peace after this film but I think that in the long term it will probably depend on how well the new Elders actually manage to stop the emergence of rogue and/or splinter groups who aren't so tolerant of the Lycans and/or Hybrids :/

      Even just from the trailers I can see Cassius stubbornly opposing Selene in the future, even if he doesn't really disagree with whatever she's proposing and just disagrees with her on principal :)

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: I'll keep an eye out for that :)

      Kind of, every so often one of the tv networks will do a cinema simulcast of an episode of one of their biggest shows, it's usually something like the season opener or finale or a holiday special and more often than not it's Doctor Who. Sometimes we get some filmed theatre productions too :)

      Thanks. :D

      I hope the DVD is out before too long. I suppose it will be months still though. I can't just go to the cinema every weekend to take more notes. :p

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    • Just taken a look at the wiki page for the Blood Wars comic (my copy isn't here yet :/  ) and it looks like the Eastern Coven's official name might be the 'Corvinus Coven', should we update the relevant pages and links or leave them as they are?

      Also, what are considering to be the official name for the branch of the coven based at Ordgohaz? Up until a few days ago we seemed to be referring to it as the 'Old World Coven' but now a load of articles are referring to it as the Budapest coven instead (even though it's not actually in Budapest). Just wanted to check so that I don't go around changing things that are actually correct :)

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: I'll keep an eye out for that :)

      Kind of, every so often one of the tv networks will do a cinema simulcast of an episode of one of their biggest shows, it's usually something like the season opener or finale or a holiday special and more often than not it's Doctor Who. Sometimes we get some filmed theatre productions too :)

      Thanks. :D

      I hope the DVD is out before too long. I suppose it will be months still though. I can't just go to the cinema every weekend to take more notes. :p

      Last I heard(not sure where unfortunately) the DVD was scheduled for the summer but tbh given that studios are now trying to stick to a 3month time gap between films being in cinemas and the DVD being released I would've thought that we could potentially get the DVD by mid May (just a guess so don't take my word for it) :)

      EDIT: Just checked a fairly reliable source (www.blu-ray.com) and they're saying the the DVD/Blu-ray will be released in the USA on 18th April :)

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: Just taken a look at the wiki page for the Blood Wars comic (my copy isn't here yet :/  ) and it looks like the Eastern Coven's official name might be the 'Corvinus Coven', should we update the relevant pages and links or leave them as they are?

      Also, what are considering to be the official name for the branch of the coven based at Ordgohaz? Up until a few days ago we seemed to be referring to it as the 'Old World Coven' but now a load of articles are referring to it as the Budapest coven instead (even though it's not actually in Budapest). Just wanted to check so that I don't go around changing things that are actually correct :)

      If I'm not mistaken, they call it the Eastern Coven in the film. I don't understand why the comic would call it the Corvinus Coven. I guess I'll just create a redirect page for "Corvinus Coven", and maybe we should mention that name on the Eastern Coven's page. But I think we should go with the name used in the film, for now anyway.

      I renamed the article on the Old World Coven, because Semira mentioned the coven briefly when she was discussing history with Thomas, and she said "Budapest Coven." Although she seemed to be mumbling a little bit at the time, so let me know if I heard it wrong when you see the film.

      Anyway, it was just down the road from Budapest, right?

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: Just taken a look at the wiki page for the Blood Wars comic (my copy isn't here yet :/  ) and it looks like the Eastern Coven's official name might be the 'Corvinus Coven', should we update the relevant pages and links or leave them as they are?

      Also, what are considering to be the official name for the branch of the coven based at Ordgohaz? Up until a few days ago we seemed to be referring to it as the 'Old World Coven' but now a load of articles are referring to it as the Budapest coven instead (even though it's not actually in Budapest). Just wanted to check so that I don't go around changing things that are actually correct :)

      If I'm not mistaken, they call it the Eastern Coven in the film. I don't understand why the comic would call it the Corvinus Coven. I guess I'll just create a redirect page for "Corvinus Coven", and maybe we should mention that name on the Eastern Coven's page. But I think we should go with the name used in the film, for now anyway.

      I renamed the article on the Old World Coven, because Semira mentioned the coven briefly when she was discussing history with Thomas, and she said "Budapest Coven." Although she seemed to be mumbling a little bit at the time, so let me know if I heard it wrong when you see the film.

      Cool, just wanted to check, I agree that we should go with whatever name they use in the film :)

      I'll try and listen carefully, just in case :)

      If the coven at Ordgohaz is the Budapest Coven (According to wikipedia and Google maps the nearest town to Ordgohaz, Szentendre, is about 30mins drive from Budapest but isn't technically part of Budapest itself), should we assume that when people mentioned the 'Old World Coven' in previous films that they were either collecively referring to all of the smaller Covens in Europe or referring to the original Coven that we saw in ROTL?

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: If the coven at Ordgohaz is the Budapest Coven (I think that it was pretty close, but still not technically Budapest), should we assume that when people mentioned the 'Old World Coven' in previous films that they were either collecively referring to all of the smaller Covens in Europe or referring to the original Coven that we saw in ROTL?

      Wait... they said "Old World Coven"? When? I thought it was only a fan term.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: If the coven at Ordgohaz is the Budapest Coven (I think that it was pretty close, but still not technically Budapest), should we assume that when people mentioned the 'Old World Coven' in previous films that they were either collecively referring to all of the smaller Covens in Europe or referring to the original Coven that we saw in ROTL?

      Wait... they said "Old World Coven"? When? I thought it was only a fan term.

      Not sure, I'd assumed that given the prevalence of the name that it had to have been used in the films at some point. You're probably right; it's probably just be a result of people hearing the characters go on about the 'New World Coven' (I think that they actually use that name in the film) and just assuming that there had to be an 'Old World Coven'  :/

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: If the coven at Ordgohaz is the Budapest Coven (I think that it was pretty close, but still not technically Budapest), should we assume that when people mentioned the 'Old World Coven' in previous films that they were either collecively referring to all of the smaller Covens in Europe or referring to the original Coven that we saw in ROTL?

      Wait... they said "Old World Coven"? When? I thought it was only a fan term.

      Not sure, I'd assumed that given the prevalence of the name that it had to have been used in the films at some point. You're probably right; it's probably just be a result of people hearing the characters go on about the 'New World Coven' (I think that they actually use that name in the film) and just assuming that there had to be an 'Old World Coven'  :/

      I don't remember. If "Old World Coven" is used in the films, then I probably shouldn't have renamed the page. Anyway, edits can be reverted later if necessary.

      I had been meaning to watch the whole series again before I saw Blood Wars, but I'm getting tired of vampire films now. Maybe I'll watch the series again when the DVD comes out. :D I think I might try to get something with Lara Pulver in it next.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: If the coven at Ordgohaz is the Budapest Coven (I think that it was pretty close, but still not technically Budapest), should we assume that when people mentioned the 'Old World Coven' in previous films that they were either collecively referring to all of the smaller Covens in Europe or referring to the original Coven that we saw in ROTL?

      Wait... they said "Old World Coven"? When? I thought it was only a fan term.
      Not sure, I'd assumed that given the prevalence of the name that it had to have been used in the films at some point. You're probably right; it's probably just be a result of people hearing the characters go on about the 'New World Coven' (I think that they actually use that name in the film) and just assuming that there had to be an 'Old World Coven'  :/
      I don't remember. If "Old World Coven" is used in the films, then I probably shouldn't have renamed the page. Anyway, edits can be reverted later if necessary.

      I had been meaning to watch the whole series again before I saw Blood Wars, but I'm getting tired of vampire films now. Maybe I'll watch the series again when the DVD comes out. :D I think I might try to get something with Lara Pulver in it next.

      I was planning on rewatching the series over the next few days anyway, I'll try and see if anyone actually calls it the 'Old World Coven' or not :)

      What vampire films have you watched recently (I know you mentioned that you'd seen, and loved, Byzantium)? Any idea which Lara Pulver film/tv show you might go for first?

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: I was planning on rewatching the series over the next few days anyway, I'll try and see if anyone actually calls it the 'Old World Coven' or not :)

      What vampire films have you watched recently (I know you mentioned that you'd seen, and loved, Byzantium)? Any idea which Lara Pulver film/tv show you might go for first?

      I watched The Lost Boys recently (not impressed). Not sure I've seen anything else in the last month or so. I was going to watch Blade but... I know it's weird to say this on the Underworld Wiki, but I'm not that into action films. At this point, I don't know how I could top Byzantium. I don't know of many good, low-action vampire films, and I've watched them all. I'm sure there are plenty of others out there, but none that people have recommended to me.

      (EDIT: Wait, maybe I should watch Dark Shadows. I forgot about that one.)

      I was going to pick something with Lara Pulver that you recommended to me. Like I mentioned, my rental store didn't seem to have anything, so I think I'll just buy something on Amazon. I don't know, what should I get first? :D

      I'm also planning to dust off some vampire books I have. I have one that's filled with vampire folklore that I haven't read much of.

      Oh, and I should finish watching Nosferatu. I have it on DVD but haven't watched all of it. For that matter, I could just browse my DVDs and find out what I haven't seen. -_-

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: I was planning on rewatching the series over the next few days anyway, I'll try and see if anyone actually calls it the 'Old World Coven' or not :)

      What vampire films have you watched recently (I know you mentioned that you'd seen, and loved, Byzantium)? Any idea which Lara Pulver film/tv show you might go for first?

      I watched The Lost Boys recently (not impressed). Not sure I've seen anything else in the last month or so. I was going to watch Blade but... I know it's weird to say this on the Underworld Wiki, but I'm not that into action films. At this point, I don't know how I could top Byzantium. I don't know of many good, low-action vampire films, and I've watched them all. I'm sure there are plenty of others out there, but none that people have recommended to me.

      (EDIT: Wait, maybe I should watch Dark Shadows. I forgot about that one.)

      I was going to pick something with Lara Pulver that you recommended to me. Like I mentioned, my rental store didn't seem to have anything, so I think I'll just buy something on Amazon. I don't know, what should I get first? :D

      I'm also planning to dust off some vampire books I have. I have one that's filled with vampire folklore that I haven't read much of.

      Oh, and I should finish watching Nosferatu. I have it on DVD but haven't watched all of it. For that matter, I could just browse my DVDs and find out what I haven't seen. -_-

      'Dark Shadows' isn't too heavy on the action, there is a bit of action stuff though; like I said on the other thread it's more of a comedy than anything :)

      As for stuff starring Lara Pulver, it depends on what you're looking for really. If you want something film-length (~1 hr 30 mins) then I would definitely say go for 'A Scandal in Belgravia' from season 2 of Sherlock (there's a recap at the beginning of the episode so you don't really need to have seen the previous episodes to understand whats going on), if you want a series to get into then I suggest Da Vinci's Demons which totals 28 episodes over 3 seasons. Alternatively there's 'GYPSY: Live from the Savoy Theatre!' which she is brilliant in (and playing against type); it's the role she won an Olivier Award for last year.

      Tbh Lara Pulver's good in pretty much everything she's done (she just doesn't always get a great deal of screen time), but I would say that these are some of her best roles and the best things to go for first (Out of the three I would probably say that 'A Scandal in Belgravia' is the best) :D

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote:
      Off-topic a bit here; just been looking at a few pages and I've seen that we've got several terms in use for 'the vampire who turned someone else into a vampire', mainly Sire and Maker. Any chance that we could all agree on one term (regardless of whether we go with something more traditional like Sire or Maker or a new term to distinguish 'Underworld' from other Vampire media like Transgenic Parent)? On a similar note, should Viktor, Lucian etc be listed off as Transgenic relatives of Eve?

      Underworld: Endless War called Viktor Selene's "maker." But like I mentioned earlier, the novelizations use the term "sire." I don't remember hearing either term in the films.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:
      Rockchick 19 wrote:
      Off-topic a bit here; just been looking at a few pages and I've seen that we've got several terms in use for 'the vampire who turned someone else into a vampire', mainly Sire and Maker. Any chance that we could all agree on one term (regardless of whether we go with something more traditional like Sire or Maker or a new term to distinguish 'Underworld' from other Vampire media like Transgenic Parent)? On a similar note, should Viktor, Lucian etc be listed off as Transgenic relatives of Eve?
      Underworld: Endless War called Viktor Selene's "maker." But like I mentioned earlier, the novelizations use the term "sire." I don't remember hearing either term in the films.

      In that case I think we should probably stick with 'sire' (except if we're referring to Marcus 'making' the vampires as a speecies).

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    • Seen the film, really enjoyed it :D

      Marius was definitely flat as a character, I would've liked at least a little explantion as to his motives, why he was so focused on Eve but dismissive of Selene (my best guess is that he deemed Eve's blood safe for him and other Lycans to drink because she is part Lycan whereas Selene isn't).

      Semira was a very interesting character (though a bit more clarification in regards to some of the comments she made about Viktor and the situation when Selene was turned etc would've been nice). I'm not 100% convinced that she's dead though; from the angle of the sword it looked as though she should've at least had a chance at surviving, not to mention the fact that David' didn't even bother to check that she was dead. I still say that stopping to marvel at the sun mid-fight was kind of out of character based on what we'd already seen.

      The Nordic vampires were technically in the sun but (with the exception of Lena) they were all covered from head to toe in furs and armor so they should've been safe from the UV raditation, Hybrids or not. Also, I think that Lena referred to the sacred place/other world as 'Valdimar'.

      I would say that Michael is dead tbh, there's no indication that he survived being drained and leaving him alive at that point would've served no tactical purpose for Marius.

      Semira definitely referred to a 'Budapest Coven', however, there wasn't any indication that the 'Budapest Coven' and the 'Old World Coven' were one and the same (beyond location). The ashes that she showed Thomas were still being kept in crates/boxes and the conversation seemed to be about more recent events; is it possible that the 'Budapest Coven' was founded by one or two survivors from the Ordgohaz but was then destroyed during the The Purges?

      The ending scene was really ambiguous. I agree that Lena seems to be the third Elder, however, I don't think that the blood being drunk in that scene was anything special - just some kind fo sustenance to help everyone get back on their feet after the battle. The way it was being handed out and drunk by various people suggests that it wasn't Elder blood or anything similar and none of those drinking the blood showed any signs that they were beginning to transform into Hybrids.

      As for Eve, personally, I would've said that the clip she appeared in at the end was done with a double and they then used CGI/Visual effects in post-production to basically copy and paster India Eisley's face onto the body double.

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: Seen the film, really enjoyed it :D

      Marius was definitely flat as a character, I would've liked at least a little explantion as to his motives, why he was so focused on Eve but dismissive of Selene (my best guess is that he deemed Eve's blood safe for him and other Lycans to drink because she is part Lycan whereas Selene isn't).

      Yeah, that seems like a good guess.

      Glad you liked it. :D

      The Nordic vampires were technically in the sun but (with the exception of Lena) they were all covered from head to toe in furs and armor so they should've been safe from the UV raditation, Hybrids or not. Also, I think that Lena referred to the sacred place/other world as 'Valdimar'.

      Hmm, so Lena is a daywalker? So should we say that the cocooning process confers daylight resistance, or that Selene shared some blood with Lena off-screen? Sunlight resistance would be very useful for vampires living that far north, where the sun could be up for pretty much the entire summer. I think it would be odd for Selene to give someone blood without anyone filming that scene.

      Semira definitely referred to a 'Budapest Coven', however, there wasn't any indication that the 'Budapest Coven' and the 'Old World Coven' were one and the same (beyond location). The ashes that she showed Thomas were still being kept in crates/boxes and the conversation seemed to be about more recent events; is it possible that the 'Budapest Coven' was founded by one or two survivors from the Ordgohaz but was then destroyed during the The Purges?

      I can't remember that scene in much detail. If there was a Budapest Coven formed by survivors during the Purges, I would be inclined to say that it's the remnants of the Old World Coven, unless we get some indication that an entirely new group of vampires took up residence in Budapest. I don't know...

      The ending scene was really ambiguous. I agree that Lena seems to be the third Elder, however, I don't think that the blood being drunk in that scene was anything special - just some kind fo sustenance to help everyone get back on their feet after the battle. The way it was being handed out and drunk by various people suggests that it wasn't Elder blood or anything similar and none of those drinking the blood showed any signs that they were beginning to transform into Hybrids.

      Yeah, I'm inclined to assume that it was normal blood. And you're right: nobody started any transformations. Everyone was calm, as I recall, which would be consistent with a simple ceremony or meal while appointing the new Elders.

      As for Eve, personally, I would've said that the clip she appeared in at the end was done with a double and they then used CGI/Visual effects in post-production to basically copy and paster India Eisley's face onto the body double.

      That seems more likely than India Eisley appearing uncredited.

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Marius was definitely flat as a character, I would've liked at least a little explantion as to his motives, why he was so focused on Eve but dismissive of Selene (my best guess is that he deemed Eve's blood safe for him and other Lycans to drink because she is part Lycan whereas Selene isn't).

      One other thing though: Marius told Selene that he wanted her blood. After Marius learned that Selene had no idea where Eve was, he gave up on trying to get her blood and just walked off. So perhaps Marius felt like he needed both Selene's and Eve's blood. Eve's blood might have been more appealing since it had lycan components, and maybe he planned to mix in Selene's blood simply to increase the quantity available, in order to turn his army.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Marius was definitely flat as a character, I would've liked at least a little explantion as to his motives, why he was so focused on Eve but dismissive of Selene (my best guess is that he deemed Eve's blood safe for him and other Lycans to drink because she is part Lycan whereas Selene isn't).
      One other thing though: Marius told Selene that he wanted her blood. After Marius learned that Selene had no idea where Eve was, he gave up on trying to get her blood and just walked off. So perhaps Marius felt like he needed both Selene's and Eve's blood. Eve's blood might have been more appealing since it had lycan components, and maybe he planned to mix in Selene's blood simply to increase the quantity available, in order to turn his army.

      Maybe he wanted Selene's blood to increase the potency of Eve's blood because Selene's blood contains a higher proportion of the active Corvinus Strain? I agree that using Selene's blood to increase the quantity of blood available to him is also a strong possibility.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      The Nordic vampires were technically in the sun but (with the exception of Lena) they were all covered from head to toe in furs and armor so they should've been safe from the UV raditation, Hybrids or not. Also, I think that Lena referred to the sacred place/other world as 'Valdimar'.

      Hmm, so Lena is a daywalker? So should we say that the cocooning process confers daylight resistance, or that Selene shared some blood with Lena off-screen? Sunlight resistance would be very useful for vampires living that far north, where the sun could be up for pretty much the entire summer. I think it would be odd for Selene to give someone blood without anyone filming that scene.

      It definitely seems more likely that daywalking is one of the abilities that can be gained by going through the cocooning process (if we assume that each time a vampire goes through the process that they gain another ability, rather than their original ability just getting stronger). Alternatively, depending on Lena's age she could've potentially ingested blood from someone else who carried the active Corvinus Strain and so was already a Hybrid when she and Selene first met (very unlikely though and it probably would've been mentioned).

      Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Semira definitely referred to a 'Budapest Coven', however, there wasn't any indication that the 'Budapest Coven' and the 'Old World Coven' were one and the same (beyond location). The ashes that she showed Thomas were still being kept in crates/boxes and the conversation seemed to be about more recent events; is it possible that the 'Budapest Coven' was founded by one or two survivors from the Ordgohaz but was then destroyed during the The Purges?

      I can't remember that scene in much detail. If there was a Budapest Coven formed by survivors during the Purges, I would be inclined to say that it's the remnants of the Old World Coven, unless we get some indication that an entirely new group of vampires took up residence in Budapest. I don't know...

      I remember Thomas being shown to Semira's private chambers, into a sort of office area (or whatever you want to call the room where she had a massive portrait of herself). Near Semira's feet were two large black boxes that looked like they were made of metal with a thin layer of foam  padding on the inside (sort of like the boxes you store expensive technical equipment in but without the foam being shaped, literally just a small amount on the sides). Semira started talking about how lucky Thomas was to have escaped the destruction of the Western Coven (I assumed that this was the offical name for Thomas' Coven from Awakening). Then she gestured to the boxes, which each contained 3-5 large glass jars containing ashes (they kind of reminded me of high-tec kilner jars tbh) and told him that this was all that was left of the Budapest Coven. Then Thomas basically told her to hurry up an tell him what her plan was (because, according to him, she always has a plan) rather than standing around being a drama queen, which lead to them walking around the castle while talking about granting Selene clemency to train the Death Dealers, Semira noting his fondness for Amelia when they came across the portraits etc.

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    • Looks like the Blood Wars DVD/Blu ray is already available for pre-order (at least in the UK), they also seem to be doing a Steelbook version :)

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: It definitely seems more likely that daywalking is one of the abilities that can be gained by going through the cocooning process (if we assume that each time a vampire goes through the process that they gain another ability, rather than their original ability just getting stronger). Alternatively, depending on Lena's age she could've potentially ingested blood from someone else who carried the active Corvinus Strain and so was already a Hybrid when she and Selene first met (very unlikely though and it probably would've been mentioned).

      Very few people have had the active Corvinus strain. The isolated strain at Antigen seemed to decay over time. Alexander is dead. David acted like he had never been to that coven before. That just leaves Eve, but I doubt that she would hand over some blood for no reason, and it seems like that might turn Lena into a vampire-lycan hybrid, but she doesn’t seem to have any lycan traits.

      I favor saying that the cocooning gives sunlight resistance, but that’s mainly because I suggested that months ago. :p Maybe our Lena article should just call her a vampire, mention her daywalking power, and say that it’s either from Corvinus blood (probably Selene’s), or repeated cocooning. The cocooning might explain why the other Nordic vampires were willing to go outside in daylight. Perhaps they can resist it enough that they don’t burn if they’re mostly covered.

      Also, after thinking about it some more, I doubt that Lena is telepathic per se. Maybe she just has visions while cocooned, and one of them showed her Selene’s history. I had hoped to see one of the visions in the film, but they didn’t show any. :-/ If that final scene with Eve had been blurry, I’d say that that was Selene and Eve meeting in the afterlife, but since it was clear, I think that that part really happened: Eve tracked down Selene, who was visiting or residing at the Nordic Coven at that point.

      I remember Thomas being shown to Semira's private chambers, into a sort of office area (or whatever you want to call the room where she had a massive portrait of herself). Near Semira's feet were two large black boxes that looked like they were made of metal with a thin layer of foam  padding on the inside (sort of like the boxes you store expensive technical equipment in but without the foam being shaped, literally just a small amount on the sides). Semira started talking about how lucky Thomas was to have escaped the destruction of the Western Coven (I assumed that this was the offical name for Thomas' Coven from Awakening). Then she gestured to the boxes, which each contained 3-5 large glass jars containing ashes (they kind of reminded me of high-tec kilner jars tbh) and told him that this was all that was left of the Budapest Coven. Then Thomas basically told her to hurry up an tell him what her plan was (because, according to him, she always has a plan) rather than standing around being a drama queen, which lead to them walking around the castle while talking about granting Selene clemency to train the Death Dealers, Semira noting his fondness for Amelia when they came across the portraits etc.

      So they recovered some ashes from the Budapest Coven. Ördögház burned probably only a couple decades ago at that point, and the Eastern Coven may have ownership of that property. Since it’s ashes, I would think that that’s a reference to the fire in Evolution.

      I also suspect that the Western Coven is the same as Thomas’s Coven. There are probably cities in western Europe that have the architecture seen in Awakening.

      What sort of hybrid should we say Marius was? Since he was injecting Michael’s blood, it seems like that would make him a temporary vampire-lycan hybrid. His beast form did have a certain resemblance to Michael’s (large, hairless, with a human face).

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    • I'm still kind of confused as to what strain does what. Even the active ones seem to be different.

      Supposedly injecting himself with Michael's blood should have transformed Marius permanently into a hybrid like Michael. If that's only temporary though, as suggested in this movie, then all that work Lucian went through in the first movie seems pointless now. All that time and effort (not to mention innocent people) wasted for a temporary power boost? Makes no sense.

      And what about the active strains? The one in Marcus makes it possible to become a lycan/vampire hybrid like Michael. Yet the one Selene got from Alexander doesn't allow for that kind of hybrid since she drank a lycan during Awakening and didn't transform.

      Considering all this, does it really matter what strain someone has? Aside from the one Selene has from Alexander, the other active ones and the dormant one seem to be doing the same. And quite frankly the one in Selene is the weakest of all. Since lycan/vampire hybrid will always be more badass than just vampire or lycan, it would make more sense for Marius to go after Michael (or maybe Eve) than anyone else (all other non-Alexander strain beings are dead after all). Selene's blood is useless for Marius.

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    • FunnyBunnies wrote:
      I'm still kind of confused as to what strain does what. Even the active ones seem to be different.

      Supposedly injecting himself with Michael's blood should have transformed Marius permanently into a hybrid like Michael. If that's only temporary though, as suggested in this movie, then all that work Lucian went through in the first movie seems pointless now. All that time and effort (not to mention innocent people) wasted for a temporary power boost? Makes no sense.

      And what about the active strains? The one in Marcus makes it possible to become a lycan/vampire hybrid like Michael. Yet the one Selene got from Alexander doesn't allow for that kind of hybrid since she drank a lycan during Awakening and didn't transform.

      Considering all this, does it really matter what strain someone has? Aside from the one Selene has from Alexander, the other active ones and the dormant one seem to be doing the same. And quite frankly the one in Selene is the weakest of all. Since lycan/vampire hybrid will always be more badass than just vampire or lycan, it would make more sense for Marius to go after Michael (or maybe Eve) than anyone else (all other non-Alexander strain beings are dead after all). Selene's blood is useless for Marius.

      As I understand it there are five different strains. 

      There's the active Corvinus Strain (which only gives the carrier the immortality) that Alexander Corvinus had, passed on to William and Marcus and gave to Selene; this also seems to be one of the strains that Eve carries. This strain appears to be particularly prone to mutations (and easily inserts itself into the carrier/drinker's DNA) when exposed to certain other biological agents; hence why Marcus and William became a Vampire and Werewolf respectively when they were bitten by rabid animals. It also allows the carrier to become a Hybrid and seems to give anybody who ingests blood containing this strain the same ability.This is likely because the active strain is the original form of the various other strains and so doesn't cause any sort of negative reaction when it comes into contact with them, instead it bonds with them.

      You've also got the dormant Corvinus strain which was the strain that Alexander Corvinus' third son inherited and was in turn inherited by Michael; this is far less potent than the active strain as it doesn't convey immortality. The dormant strain does allow the carrier to become a Hybrid, however, if blood containing this strain is ingested it will only allow the drinker to temporarily become a Hybrid, presumably because it doesn't bond to the drinker's DNA in the same way as the active strain does and so is soon metabolised.

      The third strain is the Werewolf Strain which is a mutated form of the active Corvinus Strain that occured when William Corvinus was bitten by a rabid wolf. This strain causes the carrier to become a giant wolf, mostly rabid, with no indication of human intelligence etc. The carriers are stuck as wolves for the rest of their lives. This is the only strain that appears to be able to reanimate the dead.

      Then there's the Lycan strain, a further mutation of the Werewolf strain; or at least a far less potent version. Obviously the Lycan version turns the carrier into a Lycan, should they survive the transformation. They develop increased strength, sensory abilites etc as well as an allergy to silver. This is second strain that Eve carries.

      Lastly is the Vampire strain that is the mutated form of the Corvinus strain that Marcus carried which resulted from him being bitten by a rabid bat. The carrier becomes a Vampire, like with the Lycan strain they develop increased strength, agility, extrasensory abilities etc, however, they also develop the need to drink human blood to survive and a severe allergy to UV radiation. Eve also carries this strain.

      The only strains that allow the carrier to become Hybrids are either of the Corvinus Strains so presumably Marcus (and William) must have still had traces of the original active strain in his/their DNA in order to become a Vampire-Lycan Hybrid.

      (Apologies if this sounds patronising, it really isn't intended that way :)  )

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: It definitely seems more likely that daywalking is one of the abilities that can be gained by going through the cocooning process (if we assume that each time a vampire goes through the process that they gain another ability, rather than their original ability just getting stronger). Alternatively, depending on Lena's age she could've potentially ingested blood from someone else who carried the active Corvinus Strain and so was already a Hybrid when she and Selene first met (very unlikely though and it probably would've been mentioned).

      Very few people have had the active Corvinus strain. The isolated strain at Antigen seemed to decay over time. Alexander is dead. David acted like he had never been to that coven before. That just leaves Eve, but I doubt that she would hand over some blood for no reason, and it seems like that might turn Lena into a vampire-lycan hybrid, but she doesn’t seem to have any lycan traits.

      I favor saying that the cocooning gives sunlight resistance, but that’s mainly because I suggested that months ago. :p Maybe our Lena article should just call her a vampire, mention her daywalking power, and say that it’s either from Corvinus blood (probably Selene’s), or repeated cocooning. The cocooning might explain why the other Nordic vampires were willing to go outside in daylight. Perhaps they can resist it enough that they don’t burn if they’re mostly covered.

      Also, after thinking about it some more, I doubt that Lena is telepathic per se. Maybe she just has visions while cocooned, and one of them showed her Selene’s history. I had hoped to see one of the visions in the film, but they didn’t show any. :-/ If that final scene with Eve had been blurry, I’d say that that was Selene and Eve meeting in the afterlife, but since it was clear, I think that that part really happened: Eve tracked down Selene, who was visiting or residing at the Nordic Coven at that point.

      I agree about atributing Lena's sun resistance to the cocooning process, if nothing else we still have absolutely no indication that she is a Hybrid but we know that the cocooning process can give vampires unusual abilities :) It also does seem more likely that she has visions (whether its some form of empathetic ability or precognition or not) as opposed to being telepathic.

      Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: I remember Thomas being shown to Semira's private chambers, into a sort of office area (or whatever you want to call the room where she had a massive portrait of herself). Near Semira's feet were two large black boxes that looked like they were made of metal with a thin layer of foam  padding on the inside (sort of like the boxes you store expensive technical equipment in but without the foam being shaped, literally just a small amount on the sides). Semira started talking about how lucky Thomas was to have escaped the destruction of the Western Coven (I assumed that this was the offical name for Thomas' Coven from Awakening). Then she gestured to the boxes, which each contained 3-5 large glass jars containing ashes (they kind of reminded me of high-tec kilner jars tbh) and told him that this was all that was left of the Budapest Coven. Then Thomas basically told her to hurry up an tell him what her plan was (because, according to him, she always has a plan) rather than standing around being a drama queen, which lead to them walking around the castle while talking about granting Selene clemency to train the Death Dealers, Semira noting his fondness for Amelia when they came across the portraits etc.

      So they recovered some ashes from the Budapest Coven. Ördögház burned probably only a couple decades ago at that point, and the Eastern Coven may have ownership of that property. Since it’s ashes, I would think that that’s a reference to the fire in Evolution.

      To me at least it looked more like the ashes had recently arrived at the Eastern Coven's castle than having been pulled out of storage just for Semira to use as a prop and I doubt that it would've taken them several decades to go and get the ashes if they always intended to. My other problem is the very fact that Ördögház was burned to the ground, I can't see how they would've distinguished between vampire ash and ash from the rest of the building/furnishings(or even if they could how they would've gone about separating the two to a great enough degree to be able to jar one type and not the other, nor how they would've distinguished between the remains of different vampires. Not to mention that vampire ash doesn't automatically equate to a fire; we saw that vampires who are exposed to sunlight turn to ash as well.

      Yellowantphil wrote:
      I also suspect that the Western Coven is the same as Thomas’s Coven. There are probably cities in western Europe that have the architecture seen in Awakening.

      Agreed, a lot of European cities have old catacombs and tunnels underneath them - the Western Coven could even be the official name for the branch of the 'Old World Coven' that was based in Paris.

      Yellowantphil wrote:
      What sort of hybrid should we say Marius was? Since he was injecting Michael’s blood, it seems like that would make him a temporary vampire-lycan hybrid. His beast form did have a certain resemblance to Michael’s (large, hairless, with a human face).

      I would've said that Marius would count as a temporary Lycan-Corvinus Strain Hybrid as, like Quint and Jacob, he didn't really display any vampiric qualities and his Hybrid form looked sort of like Jacob's form (except a little more human which would fit with this type of Hybrid since it seems that a small dose of the Corvinus strain results in a more human Hybrid form whereas a larger dose results in a traditional Lycan form only much larger).

      We know that Marius kidnapped Michael from the Antigen headquarters so it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility (especially given the fact that he's after Eve's blood) that he knows about and understands the research that they were doing and was able to filter the vampire DNA/vampire strain out of Michael's blood before ingesting it so that he was only enhancing his Lycan abilities rather than developing additional vampiric ones.

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote:

      As I understand it there are five different strains. 

      There's the active Corvinus Strain (which only gives the carrier the immortality) that Alexander Corvinus had, passed on to William and Marcus and gave to Selene; this also seems to be one of the strains that Eve carries. This strain appears to be particularly prone to mutations (and easily inserts itself into the carrier/drinker's DNA) when exposed to certain other biological agents; hence why Marcus and William became a Vampire and Werewolf respectively when they were bitten by rabid animals. It also allows the carrier to become a Hybrid and seems to give anybody who ingests blood containing this strain the same ability.This is likely because the active strain is the original form of the various other strains and so doesn't cause any sort of negative reaction when it comes into contact with them, instead it bonds with them.

      You've also got the dormant Corvinus strain which was the strain that Alexander Corvinus' third son inherited and was in turn inherited by Michael; this is far less potent than the active strain as it doesn't convey immortality. The dormant strain does allow the carrier to become a Hybrid, however, if blood containing this strain is ingested it will only allow the drinker to temporarily become a Hybrid, presumably because it doesn't bond to the drinker's DNA in the same way as the active strain does and so is soon metabolised.

      The third strain is the Werewolf Strain which is a mutated form of the active Corvinus Strain that occured when William Corvinus was bitten by a rabid wolf. This strain causes the carrier to become a giant wolf, mostly rabid, with no indication of human intelligence etc. The carriers are stuck as wolves for the rest of their lives. This is the only strain that appears to be able to reanimate the dead.

      Then there's the Lycan strain, a further mutation of the Werewolf strain; or at least a far less potent version. Obviously the Lycan version turns the carrier into a Lycan, should they survive the transformation. They develop increased strength, sensory abilites etc as well as an allergy to silver. This is second strain that Eve carries.

      Lastly is the Vampire strain that is the mutated form of the Corvinus strain that Marcus carried which resulted from him being bitten by a rabid bat. The carrier becomes a Vampire, like with the Lycan strain they develop increased strength, agility, extrasensory abilities etc, however, they also develop the need to drink human blood to survive and a severe allergy to UV radiation. Eve also carries this strain.

      The only strains that allow the carrier to become Hybrids are either of the Corvinus Strains so presumably Marcus (and William) must have still had traces of the original active strain in his/their DNA in order to become a Vampire-Lycan Hybrid.

      (Apologies if this sounds patronising, it really isn't intended that way :)  )

      You didn't sound patronizing. I just don't agree with your first 2 points. If the Corvinus strain that Alexander passed on to Marcus, William and Selene is especially prone to hybridization then why didn't Selene transform in Awakening? She was both bit by and drank from lycans in that movie. And nothing happened to her.

      I also don't agree that the dormant version only gives temporary powers. Michael has the dormant version and he became and stayed a vampire/lycan hybrid. Why did Lucian in the first one go through all that trouble if the power boost is only temporary? We have the scientists word that the dormant version makes for a 'perfect union' triple cell platelett. It's not perfect if it's only temporary. And as we see with Michael, it's permanent.

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    • FunnyBunnies wrote:
      Rockchick 19 wrote:
      As I understand it there are five different strains. 

      There's the active Corvinus Strain (which only gives the carrier the immortality) that Alexander Corvinus had, passed on to William and Marcus and gave to Selene; this also seems to be one of the strains that Eve carries. This strain appears to be particularly prone to mutations (and easily inserts itself into the carrier/drinker's DNA) when exposed to certain other biological agents; hence why Marcus and William became a Vampire and Werewolf respectively when they were bitten by rabid animals. It also allows the carrier to become a Hybrid and seems to give anybody who ingests blood containing this strain the same ability.This is likely because the active strain is the original form of the various other strains and so doesn't cause any sort of negative reaction when it comes into contact with them, instead it bonds with them.

      You've also got the dormant Corvinus strain which was the strain that Alexander Corvinus' third son inherited and was in turn inherited by Michael; this is far less potent than the active strain as it doesn't convey immortality. The dormant strain does allow the carrier to become a Hybrid, however, if blood containing this strain is ingested it will only allow the drinker to temporarily become a Hybrid, presumably because it doesn't bond to the drinker's DNA in the same way as the active strain does and so is soon metabolised.

      The third strain is the Werewolf Strain which is a mutated form of the active Corvinus Strain that occured when William Corvinus was bitten by a rabid wolf. This strain causes the carrier to become a giant wolf, mostly rabid, with no indication of human intelligence etc. The carriers are stuck as wolves for the rest of their lives. This is the only strain that appears to be able to reanimate the dead.

      Then there's the Lycan strain, a further mutation of the Werewolf strain; or at least a far less potent version. Obviously the Lycan version turns the carrier into a Lycan, should they survive the transformation. They develop increased strength, sensory abilites etc as well as an allergy to silver. This is second strain that Eve carries.

      Lastly is the Vampire strain that is the mutated form of the Corvinus strain that Marcus carried which resulted from him being bitten by a rabid bat. The carrier becomes a Vampire, like with the Lycan strain they develop increased strength, agility, extrasensory abilities etc, however, they also develop the need to drink human blood to survive and a severe allergy to UV radiation. Eve also carries this strain.

      The only strains that allow the carrier to become Hybrids are either of the Corvinus Strains so presumably Marcus (and William) must have still had traces of the original active strain in his/their DNA in order to become a Vampire-Lycan Hybrid.

      (Apologies if this sounds patronising, it really isn't intended that way :)  )

      You didn't sound patronizing. I just don't agree with your first 2 points. If the Corvinus strain that Alexander passed on to Marcus, William and Selene is especially prone to hybridization then why didn't Selene transform in Awakening? She was both bit by and drank from lycans in that movie. And nothing happened to her.

      I also don't agree that the dormant version only gives temporary powers. Michael has the dormant version and he became and stayed a vampire/lycan hybrid. Why did Lucian in the first one go through all that trouble if the power boost is only temporary? We have the scientists word that the dormant version makes for a 'perfect union' triple cell platelett. It's not perfect if it's only temporary. And as we see with Michael, it's permanent.

      Selene wouldn't have transformed by drinking from a Lycan because she would've only transformed if the Lycan blood contained the Corvinus Strain. The active version seems to act in a similar way to a retrovirus in that it inserts itself into the host's DNA/rewrites the host's DNA so if the blood ingested doesn't contain a version of the Corvinus Strain then the drinker won't transform.

      I took another look at the wiki page for the Corvinus Strain which gave me a little more insight - it looks like the active strain will enchance the abilities granted by a 'post-mutation' strain (ie: Vampire, Lycan or Werewolf), allowing the carrier/host to become a Corvinus Strain Hybrid. However, it's the dormant strain that is required for someone to become a Hybrid between two 'post-mutation' states ie: a Vampire-Lycan Hybrid. Consequently the dormant strain possesed by Michael would allow him to become a Lycan-Vampire Hybrid but the isolated Corvinus Strain wouldn't be, for lack of a better phrase, strong enough to confer a permanent power boost when ingested by another (something that Lucian wouldn't necessarily have known) because it isn't inserting itself into their DNA in the way that the active strain would. This also means that because Selene posseses the active strain she can't further Hybridize unless she can make her Corvinus Strain dormant (in order to get her Vampire strain to bond to it) and then ingest Lycan DNA (to get that to bond to the existing Vampire-dormant Corvinus Strain cells, thus transforming further).

      Consequently I would presume that Eve inherited the 'post-mutation' Lycan-Vampire DNA from Michael as well as the Vampire-Corvinus Strain DNA from Selene, therefore because she inherited DNA that was already Hybridized between two different 'post-mutation' strains she herself didn't need the dormant Corvinus strain to become a Hybrid. It would also explain why Eve is so powerful; she has the advantages of being a Lycan-Vampire Hybrid and her abilities are further enchanced by the active Corvinus Strain (because that is in turn bonded to Vampire DNA she appears to have more Vampire traits than Lycan)

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: To me at least it looked more like the ashes had recently arrived at the Eastern Coven's castle than having been pulled out of storage just for Semira to use as a prop and I doubt that it would've taken them several decades to go and get the ashes if they always intended to. My other problem is the very fact that Ördögház was burned to the ground, I can't see how they would've distinguished between vampire ash and ash from the rest of the building/furnishings(or even if they could how they would've gone about separating the two to a great enough degree to be able to jar one type and not the other, nor how they would've distinguished between the remains of different vampires. Not to mention that vampire ash doesn't automatically equate to a fire; we saw that vampires who are exposed to sunlight turn to ash as well.

      If the ashes were from vampire specifically, then yes, the ashes aren't necessarily recovered from the fire. Perhaps vampires had settled in Budapest (either survivors or vampires from elsewhere) and were then killed in the Purges.

      I think Semira only recently became a member of the council, so she could have sent some vampires to recover whatever they could from Ördögház. Perhaps it wasn't important to the rest of the council, so no one had done it.

      Depending on how thoroughly the mansion burned, they may have been able to recognize the ashes of burned vampires vs. ashes of the building itself.

      I would've said that Marius would count as a temporary Lycan-Corvinus Strain Hybrid as, like Quint and Jacob, he didn't really display any vampiric qualities and his Hybrid form looked sort of like Jacob's form (except a little more human which would fit with this type of Hybrid since it seems that a small dose of the Corvinus strain results in a more human Hybrid form whereas a larger dose results in a traditional Lycan form only much larger).

      We know that Marius kidnapped Michael from the Antigen headquarters so it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility (especially given the fact that he's after Eve's blood) that he knows about and understands the research that they were doing and was able to filter the vampire DNA/vampire strain out of Michael's blood before ingesting it so that he was only enhancing his Lycan abilities rather than developing additional vampiric ones.

      I can't think of any physical traits that are proof of being a vampire-lycan hybrid. Vampires have fangs and different-colored eyes, but so do lycans. They never showed Marius or the lycans eating, so we don't know whether Marius was on a diet of blood or solid food either.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: To me at least it looked more like the ashes had recently arrived at the Eastern Coven's castle than having been pulled out of storage just for Semira to use as a prop and I doubt that it would've taken them several decades to go and get the ashes if they always intended to. My other problem is the very fact that Ördögház was burned to the ground, I can't see how they would've distinguished between vampire ash and ash from the rest of the building/furnishings(or even if they could how they would've gone about separating the two to a great enough degree to be able to jar one type and not the other, nor how they would've distinguished between the remains of different vampires. Not to mention that vampire ash doesn't automatically equate to a fire; we saw that vampires who are exposed to sunlight turn to ash as well.

      If the ashes were from vampire specifically, then yes, the ashes aren't necessarily recovered from the fire. Perhaps vampires had settled in Budapest (either survivors or vampires from elsewhere) and were then killed in the Purges.

      I think Semira only recently became a member of the council, so she could have sent some vampires to recover whatever they could from Ördögház. Perhaps it wasn't important to the rest of the council, so no one had done it.

      Depending on how thoroughly the mansion burned, they may have been able to recognize the ashes of burned vampires vs. ashes of the building itself.

      Certainly the implication was that each jar contained the ashes of one specific vampire. I suppose that it could have been Semira who sent people to recover what they could from Ördögház but she seems to be less inclined to go seeking reminders of the past etc than the rest of the council and certainly doesn't value the life of her fellow vampire's to the same extent that they do either; I could see Cassius sending people to recover the remains of the members of another coven but not Semira.

      I suppose that its possible that they might have been able to recognise the different between vampire ash and other types of ash but I'm still not sure how they would've managed to separate the two in order to put the vampire ashes in jars (I'm also still not sure how they would've told the difference between the ashes of individual vampires in order to be able to tell their respective remains apart).

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      I would've said that Marius would count as a temporary Lycan-Corvinus Strain Hybrid as, like Quint and Jacob, he didn't really display any vampiric qualities and his Hybrid form looked sort of like Jacob's form (except a little more human which would fit with this type of Hybrid since it seems that a small dose of the Corvinus strain results in a more human Hybrid form whereas a larger dose results in a traditional Lycan form only much larger).

      We know that Marius kidnapped Michael from the Antigen headquarters so it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility (especially given the fact that he's after Eve's blood) that he knows about and understands the research that they were doing and was able to filter the vampire DNA/vampire strain out of Michael's blood before ingesting it so that he was only enhancing his Lycan abilities rather than developing additional vampiric ones.

      I can't think of any physical traits that are proof of being a vampire-lycan hybrid. Vampires have fangs and different-colored eyes, but so do lycans. They never showed Marius or the lycans eating, so we don't know whether Marius was on a diet of blood or solid food either.

      We may not know what kind of diet Marius was on but if he was a Lycan-Vampire Hybrid (even temporarily) then he would've possesed the appropriate strains in similar proportions to Michael so I would've expected Marius's Hybrid form to have a few visible similarites to Michael's, in particular things that aren't tied to one species or the other but only seem to appear in a Hybrid - like the blue skin. However, when you look at the forms of the other known Hybrids Marius' Hybrid form most closely resembles Jacob Lane's. There is nothing about Marius to suggest that he is a Lycan-Vampire Hybrid.

      Like I said, I can't honestly see it being a coincidence that Marius happened to be in the Antigen headquarters at the right time to kidnap Michael and that he understood the power contained within Eve and Michael's blood to a greater extent than anyone else still alive seems to. To me, that suggests that Marius either worked at Antigen and in the chaos sought to save what he could of the research or he stole a great deal fo the research when he kidnapped Michael (having discovered that he was there from a source within Antigen). Either way he attempted to then continue Antigen's research to the best of his abilites. If he's aware of Antigen's research then he must be aware of the way in which Jacob and Quint must have been filtering Eve's blood in order to eradicate the Vampire DNA so that they could use either the isolated Corvinus Strain or a combination of Lycan DNA and the Corvinus Strain.

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: Certainly the implication was that each jar contained the ashes of one specific vampire...

      OK, wikia has thrown out my reply to this twice now... I'll type it later, I guess.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: Certainly the implication was that each jar contained the ashes of one specific vampire...

      OK, wikia has thrown out my reply to this twice now... I'll type it later, I guess.

      Hate it when wikia does that, try refreshing ng the page, that normally works for me :)

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: Certainly the implication was that each jar contained the ashes of one specific vampire. I suppose that it could have been Semira who sent people to recover what they could from Ördögház but she seems to be less inclined to go seeking reminders of the past etc than the rest of the council and certainly doesn't value the life of her fellow vampire's to the same extent that they do either; I could see Cassius sending people to recover the remains of the members of another coven but not Semira.

      I suppose that its possible that they might have been able to recognise the different between vampire ash and other types of ash but I'm still not sure how they would've managed to separate the two in order to put the vampire ashes in jars (I'm also still not sure how they would've told the difference between the ashes of individual vampires in order to be able to tell their respective remains apart).

      I don't know. I can imagine scenarios where vampires died apart from anything flammable, such that the ashes of individual vampires could be recovered. Anyway, I think the original question was whether the Budapest Coven is the same as the Old World Coven, and I don't think we have any proof on that either way. I suppose Semira could have been talking about a group of vampires that she considered distinct from the Old World Coven, but I feel like calling them the same thing. I wish we had better canon information on the covens... at least a list of official names.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: Certainly the implication was that each jar contained the ashes of one specific vampire. I suppose that it could have been Semira who sent people to recover what they could from Ördögház but she seems to be less inclined to go seeking reminders of the past etc than the rest of the council and certainly doesn't value the life of her fellow vampire's to the same extent that they do either; I could see Cassius sending people to recover the remains of the members of another coven but not Semira.

      I suppose that its possible that they might have been able to recognise the different between vampire ash and other types of ash but I'm still not sure how they would've managed to separate the two in order to put the vampire ashes in jars (I'm also still not sure how they would've told the difference between the ashes of individual vampires in order to be able to tell their respective remains apart).

      I don't know. I can imagine scenarios where vampires died apart from anything flammable, such that the ashes of individual vampires could be recovered. Anyway, I think the original question was whether the Budapest Coven is the same as the Old World Coven, and I don't think we have any proof on that either way. I suppose Semira could have been talking about a group of vampires that she considered distinct from the Old World Coven, but I feel like calling them the same thing. I wish we had better canon information on the covens... at least a list of official names.

      Maybe the comic book will shed some light on it :/

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: We may not know what kind of diet Marius was on but if he was a Lycan-Vampire Hybrid (even temporarily) then he would've possesed the appropriate strains in similar proportions to Michael so I would've expected Marius's Hybrid form to have a few visible similarites to Michael's, in particular things that aren't tied to one species or the other but only seem to appear in a Hybrid - like the blue skin. However, when you look at the forms of the other known Hybrids Marius' Hybrid form most closely resembles Jacob Lane's. There is nothing about Marius to suggest that he is a Lycan-Vampire Hybrid.

      Like I said, I can't honestly see it being a coincidence that Marius happened to be in the Antigen headquarters at the right time to kidnap Michael and that he understood the power contained within Eve and Michael's blood to a greater extent than anyone else still alive seems to. To me, that suggests that Marius either worked at Antigen and in the chaos sought to save what he could of the research or he stole a great deal fo the research when he kidnapped Michael (having discovered that he was there from a source within Antigen). Either way he attempted to then continue Antigen's research to the best of his abilites. If he's aware of Antigen's research then he must be aware of the way in which Jacob and Quint must have been filtering Eve's blood in order to eradicate the Vampire DNA so that they could use either the isolated Corvinus Strain or a combination of Lycan DNA and the Corvinus Strain.

      Well, Eve doesn't have blue skin, but that second paragraph is a good point. Marius certainly could have been familiar with Antigen's research. And I guess the hybrid form of Marius does resemble Jacob's.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: We may not know what kind of diet Marius was on but if he was a Lycan-Vampire Hybrid (even temporarily) then he would've possesed the appropriate strains in similar proportions to Michael so I would've expected Marius's Hybrid form to have a few visible similarites to Michael's, in particular things that aren't tied to one species or the other but only seem to appear in a Hybrid - like the blue skin. However, when you look at the forms of the other known Hybrids Marius' Hybrid form most closely resembles Jacob Lane's. There is nothing about Marius to suggest that he is a Lycan-Vampire Hybrid.

      Like I said, I can't honestly see it being a coincidence that Marius happened to be in the Antigen headquarters at the right time to kidnap Michael and that he understood the power contained within Eve and Michael's blood to a greater extent than anyone else still alive seems to. To me, that suggests that Marius either worked at Antigen and in the chaos sought to save what he could of the research or he stole a great deal fo the research when he kidnapped Michael (having discovered that he was there from a source within Antigen). Either way he attempted to then continue Antigen's research to the best of his abilites. If he's aware of Antigen's research then he must be aware of the way in which Jacob and Quint must have been filtering Eve's blood in order to eradicate the Vampire DNA so that they could use either the isolated Corvinus Strain or a combination of Lycan DNA and the Corvinus Strain.

      Well, Eve doesn't have blue skin, but that second paragraph is a good point. Marius certainly could have been familiar with Antigen's research. And I guess the hybrid form of Marius does resemble Jacob's.

      She does have a slight bluish tint to her skin in Hybrid form, besides she and Michael are different types of Hybrid with different ratios of Vampire to Lycan (to Corvinus Strain) blood so wouldn't necessarily look the same in Hybrid form anyway. Also noticed that Marius doesn't have the same black eyes (or mostly black) that any Hybrid with Vampire and Lycan blood seems to have.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote: Anyway, I think the original question was whether the Budapest Coven is the same as the Old World Coven, and I don't think we have any proof on that either way. I suppose Semira could have been talking about a group of vampires that she considered distinct from the Old World Coven, but I feel like calling them the same thing. I wish we had better canon information on the covens... at least a list of official names.

      Think that I may have found an answer and I think that we're both sort of right. I was updating the timeline and realised that if we're assuming that the Old World Coven is the Coven that originally occupied Castle Corvinus then, originally, the Budapest Coven must have been a different Coven bcause we know that Semira was the regent of that Coven around the time of ROTL. However, I also realised that the remains of the Old World Coven must then have joined up with the Budapest Coven following the loss of Castle Corvinus - if nothing else I couldn't seen any other way that Viktor sending Semira away would've made sense as there wouldn't be any point in sending her away if she was in a different location anyway. Then it's just a case of whether the remains of Budapest Coven that Semira is referring to in Blood Wars do come from Ördögház or from several survivors of the fire in Evolution who were then killed in the Purges and tbh it's pretty much the same thing either way :)

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: She does have a slight bluish tint to her skin in Hybrid form, besides she and Michael are different types of Hybrid with different ratios of Vampire to Lycan (to Corvinus Strain) blood so wouldn't necessarily look the same in Hybrid form anyway. Also noticed that Marius doesn't have the same black eyes (or mostly black) that any Hybrid with Vampire and Lycan blood seems to have.

      Oh, if Eve's hybrid form is bluish, then maybe blue skin is a good indicator of a vampire-lycan hybrid. And yes, Marius's eyes do seem more lycan.

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: Think that I may have found an answer and I think that we're both sort of right. I was updating the timeline and realised that if we're assuming that the Old World Coven is the Coven that originally occupied Castle Corvinus then, originally, the Budapest Coven must have been a different Coven bcause we know that Semira was the regent of that Coven around the time of ROTL. However, I also realised that the remains of the Old World Coven must then have joined up with the Budapest Coven following the loss of Castle Corvinus - if nothing else I couldn't seen any other way that Viktor sending Semira away would've made sense as there wouldn't be any point in sending her away if she was in a different location anyway. Then it's just a case of whether the remains of Budapest Coven that Semira is referring to in Blood Wars do come from Ördögház or from several survivors of the fire in Evolution who were then killed in the Purges and tbh it's pretty much the same thing either way :)

      I could be wrong about this, but this is what I've been thinking: Viktor's coven was founded at the turning of Viktor and his army. His coven follows him by definition. He originally settled at Castle Corvinus in the Carpathian mountains, in modern-day Romania. Once the castle burned, he apparently relocated to the area around Buda, which eventually became part of Budapest. This coven was mostly or entirely destroyed when Marcus burned Ördögház. This wiki originally called that coven the Old World Coven. I equated it with the Budapest Coven once Semira mentioned that name. As far as I know, there was no vampire coven in the area around Buda before Viktor settled there after Castle Corvinus burned.

      I'm not sure what you mean in your last sentence. Any coven that was founded after Ördögház burned would have been very short-lived, which is part of why I've been inclined to say that the Budapest Coven is the same as the Old World Coven. But it's possible that some vampires did resettle Budapest, only for them to be destroyed during or after the Purges.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: Think that I may have found an answer and I think that we're both sort of right. I was updating the timeline and realised that if we're assuming that the Old World Coven is the Coven that originally occupied Castle Corvinus then, originally, the Budapest Coven must have been a different Coven bcause we know that Semira was the regent of that Coven around the time of ROTL. However, I also realised that the remains of the Old World Coven must then have joined up with the Budapest Coven following the loss of Castle Corvinus - if nothing else I couldn't seen any other way that Viktor sending Semira away would've made sense as there wouldn't be any point in sending her away if she was in a different location anyway. Then it's just a case of whether the remains of Budapest Coven that Semira is referring to in Blood Wars do come from Ördögház or from several survivors of the fire in Evolution who were then killed in the Purges and tbh it's pretty much the same thing either way :)

      I could be wrong about this, but this is what I've been thinking: Viktor's coven was founded at the turning of Viktor and his army. His coven follows him by definition. He originally settled at Castle Corvinus in the Carpathian mountains, in modern-day Romania. Once the castle burned, he apparently relocated to the area around Buda, which eventually became part of Budapest. This coven was mostly or entirely destroyed when Marcus burned Ördögház. This wiki originally called that coven the Old World Coven. I equated it with the Budapest Coven once Semira mentioned that name. As far as I know, there was no vampire coven in the area around Buda before Viktor settled there after Castle Corvinus burned.

      I agree that Viktor's Coven can defintely be considered to have been founded when his army was turned and that they follow him exclusively.

      The problem is that we now know that Semira was the the regent of the Budapest Coven at the very latest in 1402, prior to the loss of Castle Corvinus - after that Selene would've been there and Viktor seems to have been very careful in making sure that Selene never encountered (or even knew about) Semira. Which, to me at least, says that one of the Elders (presumably Viktor since the Coven appears to be under his control, even when he's in hibernation)) must have settled in Buda (or at least founded a Coven there) prior to the the loss of Castle Corvinus, otherwise Semira couldn't have been regent. Since Viktor is Hungarian I would've thought that he would've wanted to make sure that he kept at least one stronghold back in his home country, even after settling at Castle Corvinus. It's possible that Ördögház could have been built on the remains of the stronghold that he kept control of, even if neither he nor the majority of his Coven were residing there. Then, when Castle Corvinus was lost, Viktor led the remains of that Coven back to Hungary (turning Selene at point in the journey) where they then joined up with the Budapest Coven and Viktor began to rule from Ördögház (having sent Semira to the Nordic Coven to keep her out of the way).

      In which case the Old World Coven and the Budapest Coven would've originally been two different Covens that only became a single Coven after Castle Corvinus was lost. If this is the case, do we need separate pages for the two Covens? One for the Old World Coven, covering the events of ROTL and saying that the survivors then joined the Budapest Coven and then the Budapest Coven's page briefly mentioning it's existance prior to ROTL and covering the events of Underworld and Evolution?

      Yellowantphil wrote:
      I'm not sure what you mean in your last sentence. Any coven that was founded after Ördögház burned would have been very short-lived, which is part of why I've been inclined to say that the Budapest Coven is the same as the Old World Coven. But it's possible that some vampires did resettle Budapest, only for them to be destroyed during or after the Purges.

      I ony meant that, although it's unlikely, if several Vampires survived the destruction of Ördögház then they could've resettled in Budapest itself and that Semira could be referring to that small band of survivors (who, I agree, almost certainly would've died in the Purges) as the Budapest Coven, either to distinguish them from those who died at Ördögház (if they were only known as the Old World Coven) or to establish that they were survivors of the fire that Marcus started (if the Coven at Ördögház was known as the Budapest Coven), but that in many ways the two variations are the same as in both cases she would still be referring to Vampires who had at one point been a part of the Coven at Ördögház :)

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: She does have a slight bluish tint to her skin in Hybrid form, besides she and Michael are different types of Hybrid with different ratios of Vampire to Lycan (to Corvinus Strain) blood so wouldn't necessarily look the same in Hybrid form anyway. Also noticed that Marius doesn't have the same black eyes (or mostly black) that any Hybrid with Vampire and Lycan blood seems to have.

      Oh, if Eve's hybrid form is bluish, then maybe blue skin is a good indicator of a vampire-lycan hybrid. And yes, Marius's eyes do seem more lycan.

      Tbh with Eve's skin tone it seems to vary from picture to picture, but both her wiki page and the page for Hybrid say that her skin in Hybrid form is either blue or bluish :)

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    • If we're not sure that Lena's daywalking ability comes from drinking Selene's blood should she be removed from the Hybrid page etc, or should we leave her on there just to be on the safe side?

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: I agree that Viktor's Coven can defintely be considered to have been founded when his army was turned and that they follow him exclusively.

      The problem is that we now know that Semira was the the regent of the Budapest Coven at the very latest in 1402, prior to the loss of Castle Corvinus - after that Selene would've been there and Viktor seems to have been very careful in making sure that Selene never encountered (or even knew about) Semira. Which, to me at least, says that one of the Elders (presumably Viktor since the Coven appears to be under his control, even when he's in hibernation)) must have settled in Buda (or at least founded a Coven there) prior to the the loss of Castle Corvinus, otherwise Semira couldn't have been regent. Since Viktor is Hungarian I would've thought that he would've wanted to make sure that he kept at least one stronghold back in his home country, even after settling at Castle Corvinus. It's possible that Ördögház could have been built on the remains of the stronghold that he kept control of, even if neither he nor the majority of his Coven were residing there. Then, when Castle Corvinus was lost, Viktor led the remains of that Coven back to Hungary (turning Selene at point in the journey) where they then joined up with the Budapest Coven and Viktor began to rule from Ördögház (having sent Semira to the Nordic Coven to keep her out of the way).

      In which case the Old World Coven and the Budapest Coven would've originally been two different Covens that only became a single Coven after Castle Corvinus was lost. If this is the case, do we need separate pages for the two Covens? One for the Old World Coven, covering the events of ROTL and saying that the survivors then joined the Budapest Coven and then the Budapest Coven's page briefly mentioning it's existance prior to ROTL and covering the events of Underworld and Evolution?

      There was no city named Budapest in 1402. Did Semira say that she was regent in Budapest specifically? Could she have been Viktor's regent when Viktor was en route from Castle Corvinus to Buda, after Castle Corvinus burned and before Selene was turned?

      As for Viktor's home country, the Kingdom of Hungary didn't exist in the fifth century. Viktor, Alexander, et al apparently claimed to be Hungarian once that term meant anything, but they were there before. For a while, Castle Corvinus was part of the Kingdom of Hungary, but it was there before the kingdom was founded, and before the Magyars invaded. Anyway, Viktor's home country no longer exists, and his place of birth is unknown, other than "somewhere around modern-day Hungary."

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: If we're not sure that Lena's daywalking ability comes from drinking Selene's blood should she be removed from the Hybrid page etc, or should we leave her on there just to be on the safe side?

      I think we should remove the hybrid category, and just call her a vampire. We can make a note of her daywalking ability and mention the two possible explanations for that, and that text can mention that she could be a hybrid.

      Anyway, I'm off to work.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: I agree that Viktor's Coven can defintely be considered to have been founded when his army was turned and that they follow him exclusively.

      The problem is that we now know that Semira was the the regent of the Budapest Coven at the very latest in 1402, prior to the loss of Castle Corvinus - after that Selene would've been there and Viktor seems to have been very careful in making sure that Selene never encountered (or even knew about) Semira. Which, to me at least, says that one of the Elders (presumably Viktor since the Coven appears to be under his control, even when he's in hibernation)) must have settled in Buda (or at least founded a Coven there) prior to the the loss of Castle Corvinus, otherwise Semira couldn't have been regent. Since Viktor is Hungarian I would've thought that he would've wanted to make sure that he kept at least one stronghold back in his home country, even after settling at Castle Corvinus. It's possible that Ördögház could have been built on the remains of the stronghold that he kept control of, even if neither he nor the majority of his Coven were residing there. Then, when Castle Corvinus was lost, Viktor led the remains of that Coven back to Hungary (turning Selene at point in the journey) where they then joined up with the Budapest Coven and Viktor began to rule from Ördögház (having sent Semira to the Nordic Coven to keep her out of the way).

      In which case the Old World Coven and the Budapest Coven would've originally been two different Covens that only became a single Coven after Castle Corvinus was lost. If this is the case, do we need separate pages for the two Covens? One for the Old World Coven, covering the events of ROTL and saying that the survivors then joined the Budapest Coven and then the Budapest Coven's page briefly mentioning it's existance prior to ROTL and covering the events of Underworld and Evolution?

      There was no city named Budapest in 1402. Did Semira say that she was regent in Budapest specifically? Could she have been Viktor's regent when Viktor was en route from Castle Corvinus to Buda, after Castle Corvinus burned and before Selene was turned?

      As for Viktor's home country, the Kingdom of Hungary didn't exist in the fifth century. Viktor, Alexander, et al apparently claimed to be Hungarian once that term meant anything, but they were there before. For a while, Castle Corvinus was part of the Kingdom of Hungary, but it was there before the kingdom was founded, and before the Magyars invaded. Anyway, Viktor's home country no longer exists, and his place of birth is unknown, other than "somewhere around modern-day Hungary."

      I'm not sure whether it was Semira or Thomas but I'm pretty sure that someone specifically said she had been the regent of the Budapest Coven (I'm hoping to see the film again soon so I can double check then :)  ), it could be that they're just using the modern name for the Coven, which could explain why the comic has given a different name to at least one of the known Covens. It is possible that she could've been regent just while Viktor was en route from Castle Corvinus to Buda but what would she have been regent of (unless Viktor and a small group were moving ahead or behind the main group that she was part of)?

      I was assuming that because Semira was regent and Viktor later ruled from Ördögház that Viktor founded the Coven. We know that Amelia was going around founding Covens in the 6th Century, which, according to both the timeline and the relevant wiki page, was around the time that the Budapest Coven was founded. What if the Vampires sent out an expeditionary force of sorts to conquer more territory? What if the force included (amongst others) Thomas, Amelia, Vidar and Semira - that would explain why Vidar knows Semira by name, why Semira seems to know more about the other Covens than most and why she and Thomas seem so familiar with each other (including why she is aware that he and Amelia were 'fond' of each other). Semira would've been a good choice to represent Viktor's interests and to effectively claim at least one of the new Covens for him. The group could've left several of their number at each newly founded Coven to get the Coven up and running. They could've left Thomas at the Western Coven, Vidar at the Nordic Coven and Semira at the Budapest Coven (or whatever the original name was) with Amelia staying with the Eastern Coven. That could also explain some of Semira's animosity towards Selene if because of her, Semira not only lost the affections of Viktor but also the place that had been her home for the past 900years.

      Have to say, as much as I like the character, Semira's backstory is making her into a rather annoying walking plot hole atm :/

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: If we're not sure that Lena's daywalking ability comes from drinking Selene's blood should she be removed from the Hybrid page etc, or should we leave her on there just to be on the safe side?

      I think we should remove the hybrid category, and just call her a vampire. We can make a note of her daywalking ability and mention the two possible explanations for that, and that text can mention that she could be a hybrid.

      Anyway, I'm off to work.

      Agreed :)

      Off to work now too :/

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: If we're not sure that Lena's daywalking ability comes from drinking Selene's blood should she be removed from the Hybrid page etc, or should we leave her on there just to be on the safe side?

      I think we should remove the hybrid category, and just call her a vampire. We can make a note of her daywalking ability and mention the two possible explanations for that, and that text can mention that she could be a hybrid.

      Anyway, I'm off to work.

      Done :)

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    • I think that Quint, Marius and Jacob should also not be called Hybrids.

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    • Hulk10 wrote:
      I think that Quint, Marius and Jacob should also not be called Hybrids.

      But they are Hybrids, the only reason that Lena isn't being counted as one is because there's no proof that she drank some of Selene's blood rather than gaining her daywalking ability from the cocooning process. Corvinus Strain Hybrids are considered to be different to normal Lycans/Vampires in the films so should be considered to be different for the purposes of the wiki as well.

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: I'm not sure whether it was Semira or Thomas but I'm pretty sure that someone specifically said she had been the regent of the Budapest Coven (I'm hoping to see the film again soon so I can double check then :)  ), it could be that they're just using the modern name for the Coven, which could explain why the comic has given a different name to at least one of the known Covens. It is possible that she could've been regent just while Viktor was en route from Castle Corvinus to Buda but what would she have been regent of (unless Viktor and a small group were moving ahead or behind the main group that she was part of)?

      I was assuming that because Semira was regent and Viktor later ruled from Ördögház that Viktor founded the Coven. We know that Amelia was going around founding Covens in the 6th Century, which, according to both the timeline and the relevant wiki page, was around the time that the Budapest Coven was founded. What if the Vampires sent out an expeditionary force of sorts to conquer more territory? What if the force included (amongst others) Thomas, Amelia, Vidar and Semira - that would explain why Vidar knows Semira by name, why Semira seems to know more about the other Covens than most and why she and Thomas seem so familiar with each other (including why she is aware that he and Amelia were 'fond' of each other). Semira would've been a good choice to represent Viktor's interests and to effectively claim at least one of the new Covens for him. The group could've left several of their number at each newly founded Coven to get the Coven up and running. They could've left Thomas at the Western Coven, Vidar at the Nordic Coven and Semira at the Budapest Coven (or whatever the original name was) with Amelia staying with the Eastern Coven. That could also explain some of Semira's animosity towards Selene if because of her, Semira not only lost the affections of Viktor but also the place that had been her home for the past 900years.

      I think I may have misunderstood some of your previous posts. I hadn't considered the possibility that vampires had settled the area around modern-day Budapest before Castle Corvinus was overrun.

      If I had heard anyone in the film say that Semira was regent of the Budapest Coven, I would have interpreted it this way (which may be wrong): Semira was regent of the coven that was most recently headquartered in Budapest, regardless of where it was at the time that Semira was its regent. I suppose that there wasn't much to be regent of immediately after Viktor fled Castle Corvinus. Perhaps Viktor told Semira that she would represent his interests when he next took his slumber, and he went back on that promise before she ever took power.

      I'm don't know what you mean about Semira's home for 900 years. What is the timeline you're envisioning? (E.g. Semira turned before year whatever, lived in Buda between these years, etc.)

      Have to say, as much as I like the character, Semira's backstory is making her into a rather annoying walking plot hole atm :/

      Kind of, yes, but since we're going (I think) solely by Semira's statements 600 years after the fact, maybe some of this can be explained away by Semira reading too much into what Viktor told her. I feel like Semira is overstating Viktor's initial affection for her. That plus, Viktor lies a lot, so he could have told Semira any number of things that he didn't follow through on.

      (The geography of this is tricky to talk about, since the country borders changed multiple times, Budapest didn't exist, etc. :-/ Sorry if I came across as pedantic earlier. It all gets confusing when you have Hungarians who were born before Hungary existed, etc.)

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    • Hulk10 wrote: I think that Quint, Marius and Jacob should also not be called Hybrids.

      Because their powers were temporary?

      I suppose we should call them whatever the official materials associated with the films call them. I just checked my Awakening DVD cover, and it says that Selene faced a "new breed of super Lycans." I saw something on Twitter a while back that called David a hybrid, which would make Selene also a hybrid. The difference for the characters you listed is that their powers were from injections rather than drinking blood or being bitten.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: I'm not sure whether it was Semira or Thomas but I'm pretty sure that someone specifically said she had been the regent of the Budapest Coven (I'm hoping to see the film again soon so I can double check then :)  ), it could be that they're just using the modern name for the Coven, which could explain why the comic has given a different name to at least one of the known Covens. It is possible that she could've been regent just while Viktor was en route from Castle Corvinus to Buda but what would she have been regent of (unless Viktor and a small group were moving ahead or behind the main group that she was part of)?

      I was assuming that because Semira was regent and Viktor later ruled from Ördögház that Viktor founded the Coven. We know that Amelia was going around founding Covens in the 6th Century, which, according to both the timeline and the relevant wiki page, was around the time that the Budapest Coven was founded. What if the Vampires sent out an expeditionary force of sorts to conquer more territory? What if the force included (amongst others) Thomas, Amelia, Vidar and Semira - that would explain why Vidar knows Semira by name, why Semira seems to know more about the other Covens than most and why she and Thomas seem so familiar with each other (including why she is aware that he and Amelia were 'fond' of each other). Semira would've been a good choice to represent Viktor's interests and to effectively claim at least one of the new Covens for him. The group could've left several of their number at each newly founded Coven to get the Coven up and running. They could've left Thomas at the Western Coven, Vidar at the Nordic Coven and Semira at the Budapest Coven (or whatever the original name was) with Amelia staying with the Eastern Coven. That could also explain some of Semira's animosity towards Selene if because of her, Semira not only lost the affections of Viktor but also the place that had been her home for the past 900years.

      I think I may have misunderstood some of your previous posts. I hadn't considered the possibility that vampires had settled the area around modern-day Budapest before Castle Corvinus was overrun.

      If I had heard anyone in the film say that Semira was regent of the Budapest Coven, I would have interpreted it this way (which may be wrong): Semira was regent of the coven that was most recently headquartered in Budapest, regardless of where it was at the time that Semira was its regent. I suppose that there wasn't much to be regent of immediately after Viktor fled Castle Corvinus. Perhaps Viktor told Semira that she would represent his interests when he next took his slumber, and he went back on that promise before she ever took power.

      I'm don't know what you mean about Semira's home for 900 years. What is the timeline you're envisioning? (E.g. Semira turned before year whatever, lived in Buda between these years, etc.)

      The timeline that I was envisioning involved Semira having been turned by Viktor, either as part of his original army or as one of the people that were turned in the following twenty years (The latter seems more the more likely of the two to me, it could also explain her recent appointment to the council if the other councillors were part of Viktor's original army so are older than her, but not by much) to boost the Vampires' numbers - she could've been a warrior when she was turned or she simply showed a great deal of promise soon after she was turned - and Viktor began to keep an eye on her progress (at some later date becoming a favourite of his). I could also believe that at one point or another (I think that this could apply to both my headcanon and the actual films), given her skill level, she might have been part of Viktor's Elite Death Dealers.

      The expeditionary force would've been travelling through Europe in the 6th Century as that would coincide with the founding of at least two of the main Covens (the Nordic Coven and Eastern Coven). So, the Budapest Coven would've been founded (or at least the territory conquered) by the expeditionary force at around the same time. As the group founded new covens they left one or two of the higher ranking members along with some of the lower ranking members in each location to get each of the new Covens up and running. The Highest ranking member left in each location would've been the Head of the House and possibly regent of whichever Elder they owed their loyalty to. Semira would've then been at the Budapest Coven (serving as Viktor's regent on at least one occasion) from the 6th century to the 15th century.

      Then, after Castle Corvinus was lost in 1402 Viktor lead the remains of what I'm referring to as the Old World Coven to the stronghold of the Budapest Coven as that was the coven that was most loyal to him (The other major Covens seem as though they would owe some loyalty to him but that most of their loyalty would be to Amelia). On the journey from Castle Corvinus to Buda, Viktor encountered and turned Selene. When the remains of the Old World Coven (along with various newly turned Vampires bolstering their numbers) arrived in Buda Semira handed control of the Coven over to Viktor, who proceeded to send her to the Nordic Coven rather than reward her loyalty as she had expected (Whether Viktor actually intended it as a punishment/banishment of sorts or whether Semira merely interpreted it that way given Selene's presence I'm not sure - again, that (for me at least) goes for both my head canon and what we see in the films)). At some point (I would guess that she probably spent at least a a century or two with Nordic Coven) she then left the Nordic Coven and joined the Eastern Coven (I can't decide whether it's more likely that she chose to keep away from the Budapest Coven, that Viktor had actually banished her or that he (and later Kraven) was using her as a spy of sorts), where she remained up until the events of Blood Wars, gradually rising through the ranks of the Coven until she was the Head of the House.

      Apologies for this being rather long winded :/

      Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: Have to say, as much as I like the character, Semira's backstory is making her into a rather annoying walking plot hole atm :/

      Kind of, yes, but since we're going (I think) solely by Semira's statements 600 years after the fact, maybe some of this can be explained away by Semira reading too much into what Viktor told her. I feel like Semira is overstating Viktor's initial affection for her. That plus, Viktor lies a lot, so he could have told Semira any number of things that he didn't follow through on.

      (The geography of this is tricky to talk about, since the country borders changed multiple times, Budapest didn't exist, etc. :-/ Sorry if I came across as pedantic earlier. It all gets confusing when you have Hungarians who were born before Hungary existed, etc.)

      Semira could be overstating things a little but, personally, I feel that its more likely that Viktor did make those promises and then broke them; I mean Semira didn't really seem prone to exaggeration and Viktor is notoriously fickle with his affections. Besides, like you said Viktor lies, a lot. 

      You didn't come across as pedantic at all, given the timeline the historical aspect to it is important (though I agree that it can get pretty confusing tbh) to consider and something that I had genuinely forgotten to factor in  :)

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote: I think that Quint, Marius and Jacob should also not be called Hybrids.

      Because their powers were temporary?

      I suppose we should call them whatever the official materials associated with the films call them. I just checked my Awakening DVD cover, and it says that Selene faced a "new breed of super Lycans." I saw something on Twitter a while back that called David a hybrid, which would make Selene also a hybrid. The difference for the characters you listed is that their powers were from injections rather than drinking blood or being bitten.

      If Selene and David, as Vampire-Corvinus Strain Hybrids, are being called Hybrids on official materials (found the same description on my UK blu-ray) then we should leave them, and all other Corvinus Strain Hybrids, on the Hybrid page

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: The timeline that I was envisioning involved Semira having been turned by Viktor, either as part of his original army or as one of the people that were turned in the following twenty years (The latter seems more the more likely of the two to me, it could also explain her recent appointment to the council if the other councillors were part of Viktor's original army so are older than her, but not by much) to boost the Vampires' numbers - she could've been a warrior when she was turned or she simply showed a great deal of promise soon after she was turned - and Viktor began to keep an eye on her progress (at some later date becoming a favourite of his). I could also believe that at one point or another (I think that this could apply to both my headcanon and the actual films), given her skill level, she might have been part of Viktor's Elite Death Dealers.

      The expeditionary force would've been travelling through Europe in the 6th Century as that would coincide with the founding of at least two of the main Covens (the Nordic Coven and Eastern Coven). So, the Budapest Coven would've been founded (or at least the territory conquered) by the expeditionary force at around the same time. As the group founded new covens they left one or two of the higher ranking members along with some of the lower ranking members in each location to get each of the new Covens up and running. The Highest ranking member left in each location would've been the Head of the House and possibly regent of whichever Elder they owed their loyalty to. Semira would've then been at the Budapest Coven (serving as Viktor's regent on at least one occasion) from the 6th century to the 15th century.

      Then, after Castle Corvinus was lost in 1402 Viktor lead the remains of what I'm referring to as the Old World Coven to the stronghold of the Budapest Coven as that was the coven that was most loyal to him (The other major Covens seem as though they would owe some loyalty to him but that most of their loyalty would be to Amelia). On the journey from Castle Corvinus to Buda, Viktor encountered and turned Selene. When the remains of the Old World Coven (along with various newly turned Vampires bolstering their numbers) arrived in Buda Semira handed control of the Coven over to Viktor, who proceeded to send her to the Nordic Coven rather than reward her loyalty as she had expected (Whether Viktor actually intended it as a punishment/banishment of sorts or whether Semira merely interpreted it that way given Selene's presence I'm not sure - again, that (for me at least) goes for both my head canon and what we see in the films)). At some point (I would guess that she probably spent at least a a century or two with Nordic Coven) she then left the Nordic Coven and joined the Eastern Coven (I can't decide whether it's more likely that she chose to keep away from the Budapest Coven, that Viktor had actually banished her or that he (and later Kraven) was using her as a spy of sorts), where she remained up until the events of Blood Wars, gradually rising through the ranks of the Coven until she was the Head of the House.

      Yes, that sounds plausible.

      I remember something from the novelization of Rise of the Lycans that might be relevant here. I'm not sure that it makes sense to cross-reference that novelization with Blood Wars, since the writers of Blood Wars may not have been familiar with the novelization at all, but I'm going to do it anyway. :p From the RotL novelization, page 328:

      For now, it was more important that the Elders of the coven escape to his [Viktor's] estate outside Buda.

      So if we can take that as canon, Viktor held an estate near Buda before Lucian took Castle Corvinus. I find it unlikely that he would entrust his assets to humans, which means that he must have had at least a few vampires there. He probably would have appointed a vampire to manage the estate and represent his interests in his absence: a regent! So I think the novelization supports the idea that Viktor had a vampire regent, possibly Semira, present near Buda for some amount of time before 1402.

      To me, the wording of that quote makes it sound like the Buda estate was something less than a full-fledged coven. It could have been more of a satellite of the Old World Coven.

      Now, documenting this information (the possible timelines, the possible covens and their locations) on the wiki seems tricky. It seems like we might want a new "Vampire Covens" article that traces the history of the covens as we understand it. I don't know.

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    • As for Lena possibly being a hybrid, WarGrowlmon18 makes some good arguments in favor of her being a hybrid on the Lena talk page. In short, she was chosen as an Elder rather than Vidar, and the Elders tend to be the most powerful vampires, so in this case, hybrids. Also, only Lena went into daylight without protection, while the other Nordic vampires had head-to-toe coverage and face masks. I really wish we had seen Selene give Lena blood if that's what happened. I'm hoping for a deleted scene on the DVD that explains things somehow, but I won't be a bit surprised if we don't get one. :-/

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:
      As for Lena possibly being a hybrid, WarGrowlmon18 makes some good arguments in favor of her being a hybrid on the Lena talk page. In short, she was chosen as an Elder rather than Vidar, and the Elders tend to be the most powerful vampires, so in this case, hybrids. Also, only Lena went into daylight without protection, while the other Nordic vampires had head-to-toe coverage and face masks. I really wish we had seen Selene give Lena blood if that's what happened. I'm hoping for a deleted scene on the DVD that explains things somehow, but I won't be a bit surprised if we don't get one. :-/

      I think assuming Selene giving Lena her blood and that she can walk in the sun is too big a leap.  At least it would the same as saying Michael definitely surivives Marius bleeding him.  There are no actually proof of either, only implications.  One logic I can buy is as you pointed, considering Lena is choosen as an Elder along with David and Selene, it is likely she is equal to them in traits which include daywalking.  But that argument can be countered that unlike Selene and Lena, David has not acquired the abilities from the "sacred world."  So it could be while Selene is the most powerful, David and Lena has some of her traits.

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    • Lena's article should probably mention both possibilities without favoring either one too strongly. In my opinion, it's just not clear enough to state definitively where she got her daywalking ability. I don't have time to try to write the article that way at the moment though.

      If anybody spots some official material (on Twitter or wherever) that calls Lena a hybrid, I think we could go with that. If they call Lena a vampire, I don't think that's definitive, because it seems like they call Selene a vampire a lot.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: The timeline that I was envisioning involved Semira having been turned by Viktor, either as part of his original army or as one of the people that were turned in the following twenty years (The latter seems more the more likely of the two to me, it could also explain her recent appointment to the council if the other councillors were part of Viktor's original army so are older than her, but not by much) to boost the Vampires' numbers - she could've been a warrior when she was turned or she simply showed a great deal of promise soon after she was turned - and Viktor began to keep an eye on her progress (at some later date becoming a favourite of his). I could also believe that at one point or another (I think that this could apply to both my headcanon and the actual films), given her skill level, she might have been part of Viktor's Elite Death Dealers.

      The expeditionary force would've been travelling through Europe in the 6th Century as that would coincide with the founding of at least two of the main Covens (the Nordic Coven and Eastern Coven). So, the Budapest Coven would've been founded (or at least the territory conquered) by the expeditionary force at around the same time. As the group founded new covens they left one or two of the higher ranking members along with some of the lower ranking members in each location to get each of the new Covens up and running. The Highest ranking member left in each location would've been the Head of the House and possibly regent of whichever Elder they owed their loyalty to. Semira would've then been at the Budapest Coven (serving as Viktor's regent on at least one occasion) from the 6th century to the 15th century.

      Then, after Castle Corvinus was lost in 1402 Viktor lead the remains of what I'm referring to as the Old World Coven to the stronghold of the Budapest Coven as that was the coven that was most loyal to him (The other major Covens seem as though they would owe some loyalty to him but that most of their loyalty would be to Amelia). On the journey from Castle Corvinus to Buda, Viktor encountered and turned Selene. When the remains of the Old World Coven (along with various newly turned Vampires bolstering their numbers) arrived in Buda Semira handed control of the Coven over to Viktor, who proceeded to send her to the Nordic Coven rather than reward her loyalty as she had expected (Whether Viktor actually intended it as a punishment/banishment of sorts or whether Semira merely interpreted it that way given Selene's presence I'm not sure - again, that (for me at least) goes for both my head canon and what we see in the films)). At some point (I would guess that she probably spent at least a a century or two with Nordic Coven) she then left the Nordic Coven and joined the Eastern Coven (I can't decide whether it's more likely that she chose to keep away from the Budapest Coven, that Viktor had actually banished her or that he (and later Kraven) was using her as a spy of sorts), where she remained up until the events of Blood Wars, gradually rising through the ranks of the Coven until she was the Head of the House.

      Yes, that sounds plausible.

      I remember something from the novelization of Rise of the Lycans that might be relevant here. I'm not sure that it makes sense to cross-reference that novelization with Blood Wars, since the writers of Blood Wars may not have been familiar with the novelization at all, but I'm going to do it anyway. :p From the RotL novelization, page 328:





      For now, it was more important that the Elders of the coven escape to his [Viktor's] estate outside Buda.
      So if we can take that as canon, Viktor held an estate near Buda before Lucian took Castle Corvinus. I find it unlikely that he would entrust his assets to humans, which means that he must have had at least a few vampires there. He probably would have appointed a vampire to manage the estate and represent his interests in his absence: a regent! So I think the novelization supports the idea that Viktor had a vampire regent, possibly Semira, present near Buda for some amount of time before 1402.



      To me, the wording of that quote makes it sound like the Buda estate was something less than a full-fledged coven. It could have been more of a satellite of the Old World Coven.

      Now, documenting this information (the possible timelines, the possible covens and their locations) on the wiki seems tricky. It seems like we might want a new "Vampire Covens" article that traces the history of the covens as we understand it. I don't know.

      It does sound like it may have been smaller/less important than an actual Coven; I haven't read the novellisations but I know that some of them tend to contradict the films so I would say that it pretty much confirms that the Vampires had some kind of presence in Buda prior to the loss of Castle Corvinus but I would be hesitant to use the quote as evidence for the size/importance of the settlement (if nothing else we have no frame of reference for what they mean by estate - it could just refer to the land that a coven is occupying). Though I agree that Viktor wouldn't have entrusted his property to a human so must have had a Vampire running the place :)


      I agree that a Vampire Covens article would be very useful, especially since they keep adding more Covens (even more so if you include things like the Paris Coven that aren't mentioned in the films but are seen in additional materials like the anime). I would suggest that the page include a section detailing what we know from the films and another section that details likely scenarios that would fill in the gaps in the timeline etc but aren't actually canon, as well as a section listing off the Covens with brief descriptions etc. It also might be worth including a bit about the heirachy concerning the Heads of the Houses, Regents, general coven leadership, the Council and the Elders :)

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote:

      I'm not sure whether it was Semira or Thomas but I'm pretty sure that someone specifically said she had been the regent of the Budapest Coven (I'm hoping to see the film again soon so I can double check then :)  ), it could be that they're just using the modern name for the Coven, which could explain why the comic has given a different name to at least one of the known Covens.

      I keep forgetting about the comic. I hope it clarifies things, rather than making this coven confusion worse. :D

      I'm not generally into comics, but I think I'll order that one. If I get that and the RotL comic, I think I'll have the full set of comics, although I've only read Red in Tooth and Claw. (It's a nice story--pity it's not canon.)

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      I'm not sure whether it was Semira or Thomas but I'm pretty sure that someone specifically said she had been the regent of the Budapest Coven (I'm hoping to see the film again soon so I can double check then :)  ), it could be that they're just using the modern name for the Coven, which could explain why the comic has given a different name to at least one of the known Covens.
      I keep forgetting about the comic. I hope it clarifies things, rather than making this coven confusion worse. :D

      I'm not generally into comics, but I think I'll order that one. If I get that and the RotL comic, I think I'll have the full set of comics, although I've only read Red in Tooth and Claw. (It's a nice story--pity it's not canon.)

      Hopefully :D

      You might have to get it from eBay, it seems to have either been a limited print run or everyone had just run out of stock atm :/  The place I'd ordered it from in the UK messed up my order so I've had to buy it from eBay and people are charging quite a lot but it probably won't be as expensive for you, in my case most of the cost was stupidly expensive international shipping :/ Hopefully it should be here in a couple of weeks :)

      Haven't come across any of the others, are they any good?

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      I'm not sure whether it was Semira or Thomas but I'm pretty sure that someone specifically said she had been the regent of the Budapest Coven (I'm hoping to see the film again soon so I can double check then :)  ), it could be that they're just using the modern name for the Coven, which could explain why the comic has given a different name to at least one of the known Covens.
      I keep forgetting about the comic. I hope it clarifies things, rather than making this coven confusion worse. :D

      I'm not generally into comics, but I think I'll order that one. If I get that and the RotL comic, I think I'll have the full set of comics, although I've only read Red in Tooth and Claw. (It's a nice story--pity it's not canon.)

      Hopefully :D

      You might have to get it from eBay, it seems to have either been a limited print run or everyone had just run out of stock atm :/  The place I'd ordered it from in the UK messed up my order so I've had to buy it from eBay and people are charging quite a lot but it probably won't be as expensive for you, in my case most of the cost was stupidly expensive international shipping :/ Hopefully it should be here in a couple of weeks :)

      Haven't come across any of the others, are they any good?

      Yikes, I hadn't looked online for it yet. My local video rental store happens to have comics, but didn't have that one. I see it for $29 on Amazon... I don't want it that badly. :-| I could call some local comic book stores, but now I think they probably won't have it.

      I wanted to read Red in Tooth and Claw, but I could only find it as a set with two other Underworld comics. I think it was for the first two films, but I can't find it right now. I haven't read the film comics yet, but I think I will, if I can find it...

      Anyway, I liked Red in Tooth and Claw, but it contradicts Rise of the Lycans for pretty much the entire plot. :-/

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      I'm not sure whether it was Semira or Thomas but I'm pretty sure that someone specifically said she had been the regent of the Budapest Coven (I'm hoping to see the film again soon so I can double check then :)  ), it could be that they're just using the modern name for the Coven, which could explain why the comic has given a different name to at least one of the known Covens.
      I keep forgetting about the comic. I hope it clarifies things, rather than making this coven confusion worse. :D

      I'm not generally into comics, but I think I'll order that one. If I get that and the RotL comic, I think I'll have the full set of comics, although I've only read Red in Tooth and Claw. (It's a nice story--pity it's not canon.)

      Hopefully :D

      You might have to get it from eBay, it seems to have either been a limited print run or everyone had just run out of stock atm :/  The place I'd ordered it from in the UK messed up my order so I've had to buy it from eBay and people are charging quite a lot but it probably won't be as expensive for you, in my case most of the cost was stupidly expensive international shipping :/ Hopefully it should be here in a couple of weeks :)

      Haven't come across any of the others, are they any good?

      Yikes, I hadn't looked online for it yet. My local video rental store happens to have comics, but didn't have that one. I see it for $29 on Amazon... I don't want it that badly. :-| I could call some local comic book stores, but now I think they probably won't have it.

      I wanted to read Red in Tooth and Claw, but I could only find it as a set with two other Underworld comics. I think it was for the first two films, but I can't find it right now. I haven't read the film comics yet, but I think I will, if I can find it...

      Anyway, I liked Red in Tooth and Claw, but it contradicts Rise of the Lycans for pretty much the entire plot. :-/

      TBH you might stand a better chance at finding it in a local comic book shop, less people are going to be looking for it there :)

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: I agree that a Vampire Covens article would be very useful, especially since they keep adding more Covens (even more so if you include things like the Paris Coven that aren't mentioned in the films but are seen in additional materials like the anime). I would suggest that the page include a section detailing what we know from the films and another section that details likely scenarios that would fill in the gaps in the timeline etc but aren't actually canon, as well as a section listing off the Covens with brief descriptions etc. It also might be worth including a bit about the heirachy concerning the Heads of the Houses, Regents, general coven leadership, the Council and the Elders :)

      Once the DVD of Blood Wars comes out, I'll be able to figure out the names of the three or four locations that Marius mentioned defeating. I imagine that there were vampire covens, or at least some sort of assembly of vampires, in all of those locations.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: I agree that a Vampire Covens article would be very useful, especially since they keep adding more Covens (even more so if you include things like the Paris Coven that aren't mentioned in the films but are seen in additional materials like the anime). I would suggest that the page include a section detailing what we know from the films and another section that details likely scenarios that would fill in the gaps in the timeline etc but aren't actually canon, as well as a section listing off the Covens with brief descriptions etc. It also might be worth including a bit about the heirachy concerning the Heads of the Houses, Regents, general coven leadership, the Council and the Elders :)

      Once the DVD of Blood Wars comes out, I'll be able to figure out the names of the three or four locations that Marius mentioned defeating. I imagine that there were vampire covens, or at least some sort of assembly of vampires, in all of those locations.

      Hopefully going to see Blood Wars again in a couple of days, I'll try and listen out for the names; any idea which scene/when they were mentioned? :)

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: Hopefully going to see Blood Wars again in a couple of days, I'll try and listen out for the names; any idea which scene/when they were mentioned? :)

      It was a scene when Marius was talking to some lycans who were standing around at their hideout. I think it was just after he scolded Gregor for failing to apprehend Selene. He pointed to a map and listed several place names. I couldn't understand them, because they sounded very foreign. I found the clip on YouTube once (can't find it right now--it was probably a cam version so it might be taken down) and I still couldn't understand it. I'm going to have to wait for the subtitles, but if you can catch the names, that would be great. :D

      As I recall, everyone in the film pronounced the Nordic Coven's name with an R ("var-door"), but it seems like the official spelling is Vador. Are there accents that would add an R sound in the middle?

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: Hopefully going to see Blood Wars again in a couple of days, I'll try and listen out for the names; any idea which scene/when they were mentioned? :)

      It was a scene when Marius was talking to some lycans who were standing around at their hideout. I think it was just after he scolded Gregor for failing to apprehend Selene. He pointed to a map and listed several place names. I couldn't understand them, because they sounded very foreign. I found the clip on YouTube once (can't find it right now--it was probably a cam version so it might be taken down) and I still couldn't understand it. I'm going to have to wait for the subtitles, but if you can catch the names, that would be great. :D

      As I recall, everyone in the film pronounced the Nordic Coven's name with an R ("var-door"), but it seems like the official spelling is Vador. Are there accents that would add an R sound in the middle?

      Checked wikipedia; a circumflex on the a (should be an â) would indicate a stressed longer vowel in terms of the pronounciation, with an English accent an 'â' would usually approximate to an 'ar' sound :)

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote:

      As I recall, everyone in the film pronounced the Nordic Coven's name with an R ("var-door"), but it seems like the official spelling is Vador. Are there accents that would add an R sound in the middle?

      Checked wikipedia; a circumflex on the a (should be an â) would indicate a stressed longer vowel in terms of the pronounciation, with an English accent an 'â' would usually approximate to an 'ar' sound :)

      I guess "accent" can mean either the way people pronounce things or those marks you can attach to letters... anyway, I wouldn't expect the spelling to be "Vador" based on what I heard in the film. Maybe it makes sense to people in Europe.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote:
      As I recall, everyone in the film pronounced the Nordic Coven's name with an R ("var-door"), but it seems like the official spelling is Vador. Are there accents that would add an R sound in the middle?
      Checked wikipedia; a circumflex on the a (should be an â) would indicate a stressed longer vowel in terms of the pronounciation, with an English accent an 'â' would usually approximate to an 'ar' sound :)
      I guess "accent" can mean either the way people pronounce things or those marks you can attach to letters... anyway, I wouldn't expect the spelling to be "Vador" based on what I heard in the film. Maybe it makes sense to people in Europe.

      Like I said it could be spelled/spelt (another British-ism) Vâdor instead of Vador, it could be because they're all Brits and we do tend to switch between different pronounciations of various vowels etc or it could be a bit of both :)

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    • Comic (more the size of a softcover graphic novel tbh) arrived today :D For those of you who are interested (since it seems to be sold out everywhere) I managed to get it for about $11 plus shipping :)

      It's fairly consistant with the film; some bits are taken literally word for word from the film, other bits are a little different. It also does clarify a few things...and makes others more confusing :/

      The interesting points, the order that they appear in the comic:

      1) The jars containing the ashes do each contain the ashes of one specific Vampire, and the Eastern Coven has identified each of those Vampires (Vasilly, Klara, Orban, Sanfor, Zoltan, Balazs and Zsofia are the ones mentioned). Semira had the ashes because she was using them to teach the younger recruits about the history of the Vampires (recent or ancient isn't made clear and the jars look more archaic in the comic, however, this could just be design choice as the Council chamber looks more archaic and more similar to the designs used in ROTL than it does in the film)

      2) Thomas and Semira definitely know each other well, rather than just in passing. In the comic Varga refers to Thomas' appearance at the Eastern Coven as a homecoming (can't remember if this was in the film or not). Thomas and Semira actually hug when they see each other for the first time in, apparently, decades. She even refers to him as "Darling Thomas" (To me, at least, this seems really weird - neither of them seem like huggers!). He's also regularly referred to as 'Sir Thomas".

      3) The only Vampire Coven that Marius mentions when talking to Gregor is the Budapest Coven; apparently Marius' horde was responsible for the decimation of the Coven and they then looted their stronghold. Unfortunately he makes no mention of the other Covens that they're destroyed. 

      4) I can't remember whether the film mentioned that the self-propelling projectiles being used by the Lycans are tracer rounds.

      5) There seems to be a bit of confusion over whether the name of the new Coven is 'The Corvinus Coven' or 'The Eastern Coven'. The official name for the Coven appears to be 'The Corvinus Coven', with 'The Eastern Coven' seeming to be more of an umbrella term that refers to all of the Covens in Eastern Europe (the Council Chamber is referred to as the Eastern European Council Chambers), presumable the term 'The Western Coven' would be used in a similar manner. This could also explain why in the film it's said that there are only two Covens left (Eastern and Nordic) and yet four of the five council members don't actually appear to live in the stronghold that we see (if that particular stronghold is the best defended out of all of the strongholds that make up what's left of 'The Eastern Coven' that could explain why the entire council stays there rather than returning to wherever they live). The Nordic Coven is still just The Nordic Coven.

      6) It seems that the seals on the floor of the Concil chamber were used as tombs by hibernating Elders; whether the Elders had tombs in each of the major strongholds (or at least in both Ördögház and the Corvinus/Eastern Coven's stronghold) or whether they recovered at least part of the tombs from Ördögház (the covers are different from those seen in the first film) isn't clear.

      7) Varga's attack on Selene is far more blatant - instead of a concealed knife we're talking dagger to the stomach. The nightshade also seems to be less potent; Selene still has enough control over her body to be able to threaten Semira when she shows up. It also establishes something of a timeline here - by the time that the Thomas and David rescue Selene she's already been hooked up to the blood-letting machine for several hours.

      8) Here the spelling of Vador/Vâdor seems to match the card game - Var Dohr.

      9) There's a bit more detail on Thomas and Amelia's relationship. It seems that he was part of her court. Viktor had issued some sort of command concerning relationships between 'High-Born' Vampires; when they discovered that Amelia was pregnant they fled to the Nordic Coven to try and hide the truth and avoid angering him as they knew that Viktor would see the baby as a threat to his position, a threat that he "would not tolerate". Vidar also says that Amelia was never quite the same after she gave up David; Vidar also seems to have been present at the actual birth. The comic also indicates that it was Amelia who named David.

      10) Apparently the sort of spiritual realm/"in between place" that Lena refers to is called Valissa

      11) Vidar seems to have undergone the cocooning process an number of times; when he joins the fight against the Lycan he seems to transform into some sort of enchance Vampire form; he gets longer, more bat-like ears, longer and sharper fangs, his eyes turn a solid black and his fingernails seem to turn into claws/talons.

      12) Marius' Lycan form is a much more traditional Lycan form, perhaps a little more human than most but not by much.

      13) Alexia has enough common sense not to lick sharp pointy objects and instead swipes her finger through the blood on her sword and then tastes it; confirming with a flashback style blood memory that Eve vanished, leaving Selene nothing but a note insisting that Selene not try to find her.

      14) In the film, I don't remember Semira actively trying to stop the rest of the Council from tasting the droplets of blood that Amelia left for them in order to prove David's lineage; in the comic she knocks the preserved droplets out of their hands (Cassius seems to be the only one who manages to hold onto his long enough to taste it and witness the blood memories).

      15) The earlier assement about Vampires seemingly having difficulty concieving with each other (and therefore how unusual it seems that there were at least three children at the Nordic Coven) seems to be accurate as David is described as the "last of the purebloods" (If we assume that 'pureblood' refers to any Vampire born of two Vampire parents).

      16) In a slightly surprising move, the comic indicates that Marius never had any real feelings for Alexia and was just using her - when his horde manages to get into the Vampire's stronghold Marius instructs the other Lycans that if Alexia is still alive, kill her (They also refer to her using less than polite terms).

      17) Here, Marius appears to have killed Michael in a fight outdoors (still by slashing his throat though) rather than in some kind of basement or warehouse.

      18) The fight between David and Semira is shorter and more ridiculous; they're portrayed more as equals in combat (as opposed to the curb-stomp battle in the film). It's also not clear whether she's actually being distracted by sunlight (David never seems to damage the shutter mechanism) or if she's just randomly monologuing. She's also using a different sword for some reason (I assume because this sword was easier to draw or something as she goes through fewer outfits than in the film).

      19) There's a bit more to David using Marius' severed head to disperse the Lycans; here he basically says that they have until sunset to run for their lives because after that "[he] will never suffer [their] kind in [his] presence again". So it seems not as much hope for peace between Lycans and Vampire as we thought.

      20) It confirms that Lena is the third elder and that as a trio they intend to "forge new alliances...reclaim [their] covens, [and] create new strongholds"

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: Comic (more the size of a softcover graphic novel tbh) arrived today :D For those of you who are interested (since it seems to be sold out everywhere) I managed to get it for about $11 plus shipping :)

      Cool!

      1) The jars containing the ashes do each contain the ashes of one specific Vampire, and the Eastern Coven has identified each of those Vampires (Vasilly, Klara, Orban, Sanfor, Zoltan, Balazs and Zsofia are the ones mentioned). Semira had the ashes because she was using them to teach the younger recruits about the history of the Vampires (recent or ancient isn't made clear and the jars look more archaic in the comic, however, this could just be design choice as the Council chamber looks more archaic and more similar to the designs used in ROTL than it does in the film)

      Hmm, so you were right about the contents.

      2) Thomas and Semira definitely know each other well, rather than just in passing. In the comic Varga refers to Thomas' appearance at the Eastern Coven as a homecoming (can't remember if this was in the film or not). Thomas and Semira actually hug when they see each other for the first time in, apparently, decades. She even refers to him as "Darling Thomas" (To me, at least, this seems really weird - neither of them seem like huggers!). He's also regularly referred to as 'Sir Thomas".

      Yeah, a hug between those two does sound sort of weird.

      3) The only Vampire Coven that Marius mentions when talking to Gregor is the Budapest Coven; apparently Marius' horde was responsible for the decimation of the Coven and they then looted their stronghold. Unfortunately he makes no mention of the other Covens that they're destroyed.

      So either Budapest was resettled, or there were multiple vampire houses in the area besides Ördögház. The latter seems more likely to me: Marcus didn't attempt to systematically destroy all vampires; he just killed the ones that were nearby and then started on his quest to free his brother. He certainly knew about the other covens, but he only destroyed Ördögház. That, and Ördögház looked a bit crowded. Maybe it had more residents than usual because of the upcoming awakening (or whatever they called it).

      4) I can't remember whether the film mentioned that the self-propelling projectiles being used by the Lycans are tracer rounds.

      I think Gregor mentioned that. It was the reason Marius said that Gregor "wasn't completely useless", if I remember right.

      5) There seems to be a bit of confusion over whether the name of the new Coven is 'The Corvinus Coven' or 'The Eastern Coven'. The official name for the Coven appears to be 'The Corvinus Coven', with 'The Eastern Coven' seeming to be more of an umbrella term that refers to all of the Covens in Eastern Europe (the Council Chamber is referred to as the Eastern European Council Chambers), presumable the term 'The Western Coven' would be used in a similar manner. This could also explain why in the film it's said that there are only two Covens left (Eastern and Nordic) and yet four of the five council members don't actually appear to live in the stronghold that we see (if that particular stronghold is the best defended out of all of the strongholds that make up what's left of 'The Eastern Coven' that could explain why the entire council stays there rather than returning to wherever they live). The Nordic Coven is still just The Nordic Coven.

      Confusion abounds! -_- There must be a hierarchy of covens. Lucian mentioned "both great covens", and the Old World Coven must have been preeminent, since Viktor was there. Maybe the preeminent coven in an area can be named by the region it rules over, or by its proper name. Hmm... That would make "Old World Coven" a very appropriate alternate name for the Budapest Coven, because it was the highest authority in the Old World. Then the Eastern and Western Covens below that. But that would mean that the Prague (or wherever) Coven is now the "Old World Coven", since it has the new Elders.

      Maybe I am thinking about this too much. :p

      6) It seems that the seals on the floor of the Concil chamber were used as tombs by hibernating Elders; whether the Elders had tombs in each of the major strongholds (or at least in both Ördögház and the Corvinus/Eastern Coven's stronghold) or whether they recovered at least part of the tombs from Ördögház (the covers are different from those seen in the first film) isn't clear.

      I wonder if they're alternate crypts for use in emergencies. Maybe when Viktor and Tanis were sailing away from Castle Corvinus, Viktor said to himself, "you know, I really need a backup crypt for times like this..."

      8) Here the spelling of Vador/Vâdor seems to match the card game - Var Dohr.

      I did a search for "Vâdor" online, and it showed up in a list of Latin words. I don't know what it means, or why anyone would put a circumflex on a vowel in Latin...

      9) There's a bit more detail on Thomas and Amelia's relationship. It seems that he was part of her court. Viktor had issued some sort of command concerning relationships between 'High-Born' Vampires; when they discovered that Amelia was pregnant they fled to the Nordic Coven to try and hide the truth and avoid angering him as they knew that Viktor would see the baby as a threat to his position, a threat that he "would not tolerate". Vidar also says that Amelia was never quite the same after she gave up David; Vidar also seems to have been present at the actual birth. The comic also indicates that it was Amelia who named David.

      That makes a lot of sense. Maybe we should put some of that into our articles sometime. It sounds like Amelia wasn't quite as loyal to Viktor as she wanted Viktor to believe. :D

      11) Vidar seems to have undergone the cocooning process an number of times; when he joins the fight against the Lycan he seems to transform into some sort of enchance Vampire form; he gets longer, more bat-like ears, longer and sharper fangs, his eyes turn a solid black and his fingernails seem to turn into claws/talons.

      Did we ever see Vidar fight in the film?

      13) Alexia has enough common sense not to lick sharp pointy objects and instead swipes her finger through the blood on her sword and then tastes it; confirming with a flashback style blood memory that Eve vanished, leaving Selene nothing but a note insisting that Selene not try to find her.

      Haha, it was odd watching Alexia lick a knife. And that tongue... :-o

      14) In the film, I don't remember Semira actively trying to stop the rest of the Council from tasting the droplets of blood that Amelia left for them in order to prove David's lineage; in the comic she knocks the preserved droplets out of their hands (Cassius seems to be the only one who manages to hold onto his long enough to taste it and witness the blood memories).

      Yeah, I feel like Semira was restrained or held at gunpoint by that time, so there wasn't much she could do about it.

      15) The earlier assement about Vampires seemingly having difficulty concieving with each other (and therefore how unusual it seems that there were at least three children at the Nordic Coven) seems to be accurate as David is described as the "last of the purebloods" (If we assume that 'pureblood' refers to any Vampire born of two Vampire parents).

      Perhaps the Nordic Coven doesn't report their population very frequently, because their children are all younger than David. :D

      16) In a slightly surprising move, the comic indicates that Marius never had any real feelings for Alexia and was just using her - when his horde manages to get into the Vampire's stronghold Marius instructs the other Lycans that if Alexia is still alive, kill her (They also refer to her using less than polite terms).

      That is disappointing. It makes Marius yet another monster, instead of a sympathetic but flawed character.

      19) There's a bit more to David using Marius' severed head to disperse the Lycans; here he basically says that they have until sunset to run for their lives because after that "[he] will never suffer [their] kind in [his] presence again". So it seems not as much hope for peace between Lycans and Vampire as we thought.

      That's even worse... let's just forget that that part of the comic ever happened. :p Anyway, in the film, the lycans were winning, or at least holding their ground. David was in no position to act tough.

      20) It confirms that Lena is the third elder and that as a trio they intend to "forge new alliances...reclaim [their] covens, [and] create new strongholds"

      Awesome! I felt like our evidence for Lena being an Elder was shaky, but now we have confirmation.

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    • Kevin Grevioux aparantly has a degree in microbiology.

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    • Hulk10 wrote: Kevin Grevioux aparantly has a degree in microbiology.

      I suppose that's why mutating viruses are central to the series.

      Blood Wars is doing surprisingly well in the current poll. It has nearly as many votes as the first film. I would have thought that they way they treated Michael would have disqualified it from being the best in most people's minds. I still think the first film is the best, and I doubt that a sixth film is going to change that (but I am open to being surprised :D).

      This isn't new, but in this video at around 1:40, Theo James mentions "the next stage in the evolution of these stories," as if he expects the franchise to continue past Blood Wars. I still haven't seen anything but rumors and that one 2014 video about an Underworld 6 though.

      Maybe a TV show or sixth film will focus on the Eastern Coven. The Nordic Coven seems too peaceful to provide a focus for this series.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote: Kevin Grevioux aparantly has a degree in microbiology.

      I suppose that's why mutating viruses are central to the series.

      Blood Wars is doing surprisingly well in the current poll. It has nearly as many votes as the first film. I would have thought that they way they treated Michael would have disqualified it from being the best in most people's minds. I still think the first film is the best, and I doubt that a sixth film is going to change that (but I am open to being surprised :D).

      This isn't new, but in this video at around 1:40, Theo James mentions "the next stage in the evolution of these stories," as if he expects the franchise to continue past Blood Wars. I still haven't seen anything but rumors and that one 2014 video about an Underworld 6 though.

      Maybe a TV show or sixth film will focus on the Eastern Coven. The Nordic Coven seems too peaceful to provide a focus for this series.

      I think that Blood Wars is proving so popular because it's more like the original in tone than some of the others (which tbf it was intended to be), especially since Awakening was more Resident Evil than Underworld and ROTL didn't have Selene in it.

      Personally I really like Blood Wars (not exactly a secret though :P ), in part because it feels more like and ensemble film than some of the others and to me it makes the film richer and the world bigger than if we're just exlcusively focusing on one person the entire time. Also, as much as most people will disagree with me on this (Please don't kill me Hulk :P ) is the fact that the Selene/Michael plotline wasn't centralised to detriment of everything else, I wasn't as fond of that plot as a lot of people were so I was kind of glad that it didn't play that big a part in Blood Wars.

      I think that if they do a TV show then if would definitely have to focus on something/someone other than Selene so either the Eastern Coven or another prequel would probably be a safe bet :) On the other hand, if they do a sixth film I think that Selene would probably end up being the focus, at least initally, if for no other reason than continuity and the fact that the franchise has been built around Kate Beckinsale for so long that I think a lot of fans would kick off if they did a film without her.

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: I think that Blood Wars is proving so popular because it's more like the original in tone than some of the others (which tbf it was intended to be), especially since Awakening was more Resident Evil than Underworld and ROTL didn't have Selene in it.

      Personally I really like Blood Wars (not exactly a secret though :P ), in part because it feels more like and ensemble film than some of the others and to me it makes the film richer and the world bigger than if we're just exlcusively focusing on one person the entire time. Also, as much as most people will disagree with me on this (Please don't kill me Hulk :P ) is the fact that the Selene/Michael plotline wasn't centralised to detriment of everything else, I wasn't as fond of that plot as a lot of people were so I was kind of glad that it didn't play that big a part in Blood Wars.

      I think that if they do a TV show then if would definitely have to focus on something/someone other than Selene so either the Eastern Coven or another prequel would probably be a safe bet :) On the other hand, if they do a sixth film I think that Selene would probably end up being the focus, at least initally, if for no other reason than continuity and the fact that the franchise has been built around Kate Beckinsale for so long that I think a lot of fans would kick off if they did a film without her.

      Don't get me wrong: I liked it a lot too. :D (Sorry, Hulk.) I'd say it's more or less tied with Evolution as my second favorite. I'd have to watch the series again to decide on Evolution vs. Blood Wars. I just think that the way they unceremoniously disposed of Michael counts as a mark against the film.

      I liked the style and ambiance of Ördögház somewhat better than the Eastern Coven. The monochrome palette of the Eastern Coven was interesting, but I liked the colors of Ördögház better.

      On the other hand, one of my favorite things to watch (in any franchise) is vampire politics, and Blood Wars had possibly the most interesting politics of any film in the series. When Viktor was alive, he pretty much just got his way all the time, but in Blood Wars, Semira nearly succeeded at staging a coup. Very interesting. :D

      Blood Wars definitely expanded the universe a fair amount, which will come in handy for any future installments. As for the Selene and Michael plotline being detrimental, I don't know. I haven't thought about that before.

      For a sixth film, my guess is that Selene will mostly stay at the castle bossing people around. Cassius was fairly prominent in the trailers, but he had a fairly minor role in the film. If they do the same thing for Selene, they could drag in the Kate Beckinsale fans only to give her a minor role of sending the protagonist on a mission. That might upset some fans, but I doubt that Selene will have a lead role anymore. Some of the posts on the official Twitter page have been implying that Selene is done at this point.

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    • Its fine. But given how being impaled should have caused fatal blood loss I still think that Michael is still alive, some how. I also take great issue with the idea that the Selene and Michael plotline being detrimental.

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote: Kevin Grevioux aparantly has a degree in microbiology.

      I suppose that's why mutating viruses are central to the series.

      Blood Wars is doing surprisingly well in the current poll. It has nearly as many votes as the first film. I would have thought that they way they treated Michael would have disqualified it from being the best in most people's minds. I still think the first film is the best, and I doubt that a sixth film is going to change that (but I am open to being surprised :D).

      This isn't new, but in this video at around 1:40, Theo James mentions "the next stage in the evolution of these stories," as if he expects the franchise to continue past Blood Wars. I still haven't seen anything but rumors and that one 2014 video about an Underworld 6 though.

      Maybe a TV show or sixth film will focus on the Eastern Coven. The Nordic Coven seems too peaceful to provide a focus for this series.

      I think that Blood Wars is proving so popular because it's more like the original in tone than some of the others (which tbf it was intended to be), especially since Awakening was more Resident Evil than Underworld and ROTL didn't have Selene in it.

      Personally I really like Blood Wars (not exactly a secret though :P ), in part because it feels more like and ensemble film than some of the others and to me it makes the film richer and the world bigger than if we're just exlcusively focusing on one person the entire time. Also, as much as most people will disagree with me on this (Please don't kill me Hulk :P ) is the fact that the Selene/Michael plotline wasn't centralised to detriment of everything else, I wasn't as fond of that plot as a lot of people were so I was kind of glad that it didn't play that big a part in Blood Wars.

      I think that if they do a TV show then if would definitely have to focus on something/someone other than Selene so either the Eastern Coven or another prequel would probably be a safe bet :) On the other hand, if they do a sixth film I think that Selene would probably end up being the focus, at least initally, if for no other reason than continuity and the fact that the franchise has been built around Kate Beckinsale for so long that I think a lot of fans would kick off if they did a film without her.

      I don't deny that your view of the Michael and Selene plotline as being detrimental makes me angry. But I won't kill you.

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    • It seems to me I'm the only one in this thread who hates Blood Wars and Michael's death................. And I'm getting kinda tired of that grrrrrrrrrrr............. >:(

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    • Hulk10 wrote: It seems to me I'm the only one in this thread who hates Blood Wars and Michael's death................. And I'm getting kinda tired of that grrrrrrrrrrr............. >:(

      Some people at the IMDb forums have been very critical of Blood Wars. Reactions seem to run from enthusiastic to disappointed to angry--pretty much all over the place. And I've seen multiple people skeptical of Michael's death, most recently an anonymous editor earlier today. That person edited questions into article pages, so I had to revert them, but they didn't appear to buy the plotline as presented in Blood Wars.

      This series isn't always strong on logic, unfortunately.

      I just sort of take the series for what it is. It's never been the finest cinema, but I find it entertaining more often than not.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote: It seems to me I'm the only one in this thread who hates Blood Wars and Michael's death................. And I'm getting kinda tired of that grrrrrrrrrrr............. >:(

      Some people at the IMDb forums have been very critical of Blood Wars. Reactions seem to run from enthusiastic to disappointed to angry--pretty much all over the place. And I've seen multiple people skeptical of Michael's death, most recently an anonymous editor earlier today. That person edited questions into article pages, so I had to revert them, but they didn't appear to buy the plotline as presented in Blood Wars.

      This series isn't always strong on logic, unfortunately.

      I just sort of take the series for what it is. It's never been the finest cinema, but I find it entertaining more often than not.

      I meant on this thread. But yeah. You all are entitled to your opinions.

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    • Saw Blood Wars again last night and kept an eye out for some of the stuff that's been confusing us/causing problems.

      I listened for the locations that Marius mentions; he was talking about entire regions where they'd wiped out the Vampire population. Based on what I heard (and google maps) I think, but can't be certain, that he mentioned Tyrhennia (I presume he's refering to the region of Italy that borders the Tyrhennian Sea, so somewhere around Naples), Bolzano Bozen in North Eastern Italy and Notgasse in Germany. If I've heard any of these correctly then it suggests that Marius himself is likely French or German (If he was Italian I would expect them to be calling him Mario). It also means that since he doesn't seem to have started taking out Vampire Covens until after he captured Michael from the Antigen Labs that the labs and headquarters are likely to be in Western Europe, rather than Hungary. Based on a little research (mainly based on the presence of Skyscrapers, Catacombs and a relatively close dam/hydroelectric power plant) I would guess that Antigen Headquarters were most likely in Brussels, Belgium (Plenty of Skyscrapers, catacombs containing pieces of an old castle I think, Hydroelectric plant about 1hr 40mins away by car so with Vampire speed...) (Naples, Italy would probably be my second guess (there is only a small area in the city that has Skyscrapers) with London (no nearby dam/hydroelectric powerplant) and Paris (small number of skyscrapers and no dam/hydroeletric power plant) being possibilities, but far less likely). With that theory in mind Marius' horde would've been moving systematically East wiping out Covens as they went, all the while heading for the biggest and oldest strongholds. This would also fit with the Coven heirachy that we seem to have worked out; the Old World Coven and the New World Coven at the top with the Eastern, Western and Nordic Covens branching off from the OWC and then all of the individual covens like the Budapest Coven, Thomas' Coven, those who were living at Castle Corvinus, the Paris Coven and the Corvinus Coven (the only heavily defended fortress left in the Eastern Coven) braching off from those three (with it just so happening that only one Coven actually wanted to live in the area that the overall Nordic Coven controlled).

      I double checked whether we see Vidar fighting; we don't, he just seems to be cheering on David and Lena while protecting those who can't fight.

      Surprisingly, when Thomas shows up at the Corvinus Coven it is referred to as a homecoming by Varga and Semira does call him "Darling Thomas" (thankfully no weird hug :)  )

      You were right, the self-propelling round being a tracer round was mentioned by Gregor and Marius :)

      If you're listening out for it you can actually hear the very end of the history lesson that is depicted in the comic when Thomas is being led to Semira's office/rooms (more her ending the lesson and dismissing the recruits than anything else)

      We were also correct that Semira doesn't attempt to prevent the council drinking the vials of blood that Amelia left for them, however, Semira isn't actually restrained in any way at that point - she's even offered the last vial of blood in the container (it seems that the ring Amelia left for David was in the middle of the container but each, for lack of a better phrase, petal section held a small metallic vial of her blood as well; rather than the crystallised droplets that the comic depicts) by the Death Dealer handing them out and she refuses it.

      I made sure that I paid attention to how people were pronouncing the name of the Nordic Coven's stronghold and to me it seems like it should be spelt/spelled Var Dohr (Out of curiosity, other than the clip on youtube what other official materials use the 'Vador' spelling? If it's only that clip then I would say that the combination of the card game and the graphic novel are enough to be able to say that the spelling is Var Dohr).

      Lastly, I would argue that if we're still listing off Michael as 'presumed deceased' then we should be listing Semira off in the same way. I double checked whether David actually checked whether she was dead; he didn't, literally the moment she hit the floor he walked out of the room so all we can really say is that he inflicted a wound that, theoretically she should've been able to survive and that no one actually bothered to check whether she was still alive or not (she could've easily slipped out of the castle in the aftermath of the battle, especially when everyone was gathering in the Council Chamber).

      Apologies for the long-windedness again :)

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    • Is there any chance that editing of any pages relevant to Blood Wars could be restricted to registered users? I'm just getting fed up of having to go in an undo/redo edits concerning info that we've agreed is relevant but no one else is getting the hint (I have previously asked people not to change certain things in the edit notes but, at the very least, unregistered users are going in an mucking with it anyway :/ )

      Also, are we considering info that is only found in the Blood Wars comic to be canon? Just don't want to start adding stuff to the articles if it isn't :)

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: Saw Blood Wars again last night...

      Wow, that's a lot of great research! Antigen being in western Europe would make a lot of sense. I hadn't thought to look for elements from the film like a hydroelectric dam.

      I'll have to look up some of that stuff next time I watch the films, which will probably be a while still. I believe you, but I want to see it for myself. :D

      I think it might only be that one clip that has "Vador". Perhaps we should go with "Var Dohr", since like you said, the comic and game agree. I'll check the subtitles in April.

      It's fine with me if you want to list Semira as presumed deceased. I think that she and Michael died by sloppy writing, but it's possible that she survived.

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: Is there any chance that editing of any pages relevant to Blood Wars could be restricted to registered users? I'm just getting fed up of having to go in an undo/redo edits concerning info that we've agreed is relevant but no one else is getting the hint (I have previously asked people not to change certain things in the edit notes but, at the very least, unregistered users are going in an mucking with it anyway :/ )

      Also, are we considering info that is only found in the Blood Wars comic to be canon? Just don't want to start adding stuff to the articles if it isn't :)

      I suppose I could put partial protection on some pages, but I don't want to overdo it. What pages do you think need protected? From looking at today's edit history, I suppose you're thinking of the Selene and Semira pages, at least.

      I checked the manual of style to be sure, and this wiki accepts comics as canon on any points that the films don't contradict. So adding information only found in the comic would be great. :D

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: Saw Blood Wars again last night...

      Wow, that's a lot of great research! Antigen being in western Europe would make a lot of sense. I hadn't thought to look for elements from the film like a hydroelectric dam.

      I'll have to look up some of that stuff next time I watch the films, which will probably be a while still. I believe you, but I want to see it for myself. :D

      I think it might only be that one clip that has "Vador". Perhaps we should go with "Var Dohr", since like you said, the comic and game agree. I'll check the subtitles in April.

      It's fine with me if you want to list Semira as presumed deceased. I think that she and Michael died by sloppy writing, but it's possible that she survived.

      Lol, thanks :D  The whole location of Antigen thing was more of a pet peeve that Blood Wars helped me to solve than anything. It just bugged me that they shot in Vancouver and made no attempt to make it look more like a European City because a lot of European cities don't have many skyscrapers, most of buildings are quite a bit older. It just so happened that Blood Wars helped me pinpoint a rough area to check for cities with the right comination of features :D 

      Cool, tbh most of those things I only noticed because I was specifically looking for them :)

      Thanks :) I just found it strange that she was killed with a blow that can't have been anything but an homage to Lucian and Viktor in ROTL and that as such she could've survived and then they had David not even bothering to check that she was actually dead :/

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: Is there any chance that editing of any pages relevant to Blood Wars could be restricted to registered users? I'm just getting fed up of having to go in an undo/redo edits concerning info that we've agreed is relevant but no one else is getting the hint (I have previously asked people not to change certain things in the edit notes but, at the very least, unregistered users are going in an mucking with it anyway :/ )

      Also, are we considering info that is only found in the Blood Wars comic to be canon? Just don't want to start adding stuff to the articles if it isn't :)

      I suppose I could put partial protection on some pages, but I don't want to overdo it. What pages do you think need protected? From looking at today's edit history, I suppose you're thinking of the Selene and Semira pages, at least.

      I checked the manual of style to be sure, and this wiki accepts comics as canon on any points that the films don't contradict. So adding information only found in the comic would be great. :D

      I think that atm the pages that need partial protection are Semira, Selene, Lena, Hybrid, the actual film page, possibly the Timeline and perhaps the relevant Coven pages (with the Coven pages, at least until we've sorted out whats going on with the heirachy etc and updated the pages/created new pages accordingly) :)

      Cool, I'll start adding the info from the comic :)

      Just to check (again), how do we want to list off the current theories about the heirachy of Covens etc, should they go in the trivia sections, do we want to add a new section on the appropriate pages for theories? Equally is there anything that we've discussed/theorised about that should just be added into the articles, rather than putting them in additional/other sections?

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    • I think its possible for both Semira and Michael to still be alive.

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: I think that atm the pages that need partial protection are Semira, Selene, Lena, Hybrid, the actual film page, possibly the Timeline and perhaps the relevant Coven pages (with the Coven pages, at least until we've sorted out whats going on with the heirachy etc and updated the pages/created new pages accordingly) :)

      Cool, I'll start adding the info from the comic :)

      Just to check (again), how do we want to list off the current theories about the heirachy of Covens etc, should they go in the trivia sections, do we want to add a new section on the appropriate pages for theories? Equally is there anything that we've discussed/theorised about that should just be added into the articles, rather than putting them in additional/other sections?

      I'll take a look at those pages when I'm feeling less lazy to see how plagued they are by questionable anonymous edits.

      For the hierarchy of covens, maybe we should just write that covens summary article. I've been lazy about making edits, so this thread has tons of good information that hasn't found its way into the articles yet.

      I'm not sure what you mean about adding information to articles vs. other sections, but just put information wherever you think it fits. We can move it later if someone else has a different idea for where to put it.

      One other thing: "yellowantphil says so" isn't a compelling reason to make or revert edits. It doesn't matter to me whether Semira and Selene are listed as relatives. When I'm not using admin powers, I'm just another normal editor around here. AlessaGillespie is the bureaucrat and can pronounce things by fiat, but I am just a humble admin. :D

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    • Hulk10 wrote: I think its possible for both Semira and Michael to still be alive.

      Possible, yes. But it wouldn't surprise me if the writing was just lazy.

      Writer 1: How should we kill Semira?
      Writer 2: With a sword. Swords always kill vampires, right?
      Writer 1: Umm, yeah, that sounds right.
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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote: I think its possible for both Semira and Michael to still be alive.

      Possible, yes. But it wouldn't surprise me if the writing was just lazy.

      Writer 1: How should we kill Semira?
      Writer 2: With a sword. Swords always kill vampires, right?
      Writer 1: Umm, yeah, that sounds right.

      Yeah it wouldn't surprise me either.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: I think that atm the pages that need partial protection are Semira, Selene, Lena, Hybrid, the actual film page, possibly the Timeline and perhaps the relevant Coven pages (with the Coven pages, at least until we've sorted out whats going on with the heirachy etc and updated the pages/created new pages accordingly) :)

      Cool, I'll start adding the info from the comic :)

      Just to check (again), how do we want to list off the current theories about the heirachy of Covens etc, should they go in the trivia sections, do we want to add a new section on the appropriate pages for theories? Equally is there anything that we've discussed/theorised about that should just be added into the articles, rather than putting them in additional/other sections?

      I'll take a look at those pages when I'm feeling less lazy to see how plagued they are by questionable anonymous edits.

      For the hierarchy of covens, maybe we should just write that covens summary article. I've been lazy about making edits, so this thread has tons of good information that hasn't found its way into the articles yet.

      I'm not sure what you mean about adding information to articles vs. other sections, but just put information wherever you think it fits. We can move it later if someone else has a different idea for where to put it.

      One other thing: "yellowantphil says so" isn't a compelling reason to make or revert edits. It doesn't matter to me whether Semira and Selene are listed as relatives. When I'm not using admin powers, I'm just another normal editor around here. AlessaGillespie is the bureaucrat and can pronounce things by fiat, but I am just a humble admin. :D

      Ok, tbh some of those pags aren't too bad, its more that some aspects relating to the pages aren't clear and it partially protecting them seems easier than everyone (including me :P ) constantly switching things back and forth depending on their own opinion.

      I just meant whether any of the theories that have been discussed and agreed upon as making sense, should be put in a specific section for speculation/theories or just add them in with the canon stuff.

      Ok, sorry; I only said it because I genuinely thought that it had been agreed upon that it was relevant and it was ok to leave it in the article (I did try getting people to leave it there without mentioning admins)  :/

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    • Hulk10 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote: I think its possible for both Semira and Michael to still be alive.

      Possible, yes. But it wouldn't surprise me if the writing was just lazy.


      Writer 1: How should we kill Semira?
      Writer 2: With a sword. Swords always kill vampires, right?
      Writer 1: Umm, yeah, that sounds right.
      Yeah it wouldn't surprise me either.

      I can easily believe that they put little thought into it, and not much more thought into how to kill off Michael  :/

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: I just meant whether any of the theories that have been discussed and agreed upon as making sense, should be put in a specific section for speculation/theories or just add them in with the canon stuff.

      Oh, I see. AlessaGillespie frowns on pure speculation being added to articles (see her comment here). I think if speculation is backed up by canon information but it isn't certain, we could put it in a trivia or notes section, or at least mark it as being uncertain somehow. Anything we can prove from canon sources (including comics) can go in the main sections of the article. At least, I think that makes sense...

      Ok, sorry; I only said it because I genuinely thought that it had been agreed upon that it was relevant and it was ok to leave it in the article (I did try getting people to leave it there without mentioning admins)  :/

      It's nothing to worry about. Actually, I think I was trying to weasel out of giving a direct answer when we were talking about that earlier (weeks ago). Sorry about being unclear earlier.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: I just meant whether any of the theories that have been discussed and agreed upon as making sense, should be put in a specific section for speculation/theories or just add them in with the canon stuff.

      Oh, I see. AlessaGillespie frowns on pure speculation being added to articles (see her comment here). I think if speculation is backed up by canon information but it isn't certain, we could put it in a trivia or notes section, or at least mark it as being uncertain somehow. Anything we can prove from canon sources (including comics) can go in the main sections of the article. At least, I think that makes sense...


      Ok, sorry; I only said it because I genuinely thought that it had been agreed upon that it was relevant and it was ok to leave it in the article (I did try getting people to leave it there without mentioning admins)  :/

      It's nothing to worry about. Actually, I think I was trying to weasel out of giving a direct answer when we were talking about that earlier (weeks ago). Sorry about being unclear earlier.

      Notes section it is  :)

      No problem :) 

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    • Having just watched the 2010 reimagining of the Wolfman it reignited my fascination with hybrid's like Michael and makes me think that a hybrid like Michael could learn to run on all fours.

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    • Hulk10 wrote: Having just watched the 2010 reimagining of the Wolfman it reignited my fascination with hybrid's like Michael and makes me think that a hybrid like Michael could learn to run on all fours.

      I don't know... his hybrid form is pretty humanoid. I think to run on all fours, he would need a second, more wolflike hybrid form.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote: Having just watched the 2010 reimagining of the Wolfman it reignited my fascination with hybrid's like Michael and makes me think that a hybrid like Michael could learn to run on all fours.

      I don't know... his hybrid form is pretty humanoid. I think to run on all fours, he would need a second, more wolflike hybrid form.

      Yeah I agree.

        Loading editor
    • I had a thought: Lord Clovis seemed to be religious and mentioned the "living will of Anubis". Anubis is (according to Wikipedia) the Egyptian god of embalming and the afterlife, and lord of the underworld (among other things). The Nordic cocooning process reminds me of Egyptian mummification.

      Is it possible that the lake next to the Nordic Castle was blessed by Anubis? That could explain why Lena ceremonially wraps bodies of apparently deceased vampires and places them in the water. They die, are ushered to the underworld by Anubis, and then return.

      The odd thing here is that Anubis is depicted with a canine head. But perhaps vampire priests (??) taught that that was an inaccurate portrayal of their god, and that he had some other form, like that of a bat.

      The Rise of the Lycans novelization makes a brief reference to the "dark gods"--it seems like Anubis would qualify. We've seen very little religious content in the series, but I wonder if some of the vampires are polytheistic and worship Anubis as their primary god.

      Although that would make Lena's acceptance of the title of Elder odd, since it presumably means that she'll stop being a sort of priestess of Anubis and start being a politician. But maybe she intends to introduce devotion to Anubis at the Eastern Coven.

        Loading editor
    • Yellowantphil wrote: I had a thought: Lord Clovis seemed to be religious and mentioned the "living will of Anubis". Anubis is (according to Wikipedia) the Egyptian god of embalming and the afterlife, and lord of the underworld (among other things). The Nordic cocooning process reminds me of Egyptian mummification.

      Is it possible that the lake next to the Nordic Castle was blessed by Anubis? That could explain why Lena ceremonially wraps bodies of apparently deceased vampires and places them in the water. They die, are ushered to the underworld by Anubis, and then return.

      The odd thing here is that Anubis is depicted with a canine head. But perhaps vampire priests (??) taught that that was an inaccurate portrayal of their god, and that he had some other form, like that of a bat.

      The Rise of the Lycans novelization makes a brief reference to the "dark gods"--it seems like Anubis would qualify. We've seen very little religious content in the series, but I wonder if some of the vampires are polytheistic and worship Anubis as their primary god.

      Although that would make Lena's acceptance of the title of Elder odd, since it presumably means that she'll stop being a sort of priestess of Anubis and start being a politician. But maybe she intends to introduce devotion to Anubis at the Eastern Coven.

      Actually I believe Osiris is the lord of the underworld

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    • Hulk10 wrote: Actually I believe Osiris is the lord of the underworld

      All I know is what Wikipedia says, which is this:

      By the Middle Kingdom (c. 2055 – 1650 BC) he was replaced by Osiris in his role as lord of the underworld.
      So Anubis is... some dude who hangs around the underworld, and runs, or used to run, a ferry service. I guess.
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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote: Actually I believe Osiris is the lord of the underworld

      All I know is what Wikipedia says, which is this:

      By the Middle Kingdom (c. 2055 – 1650 BC) he was replaced by Osiris in his role as lord of the underworld.
      So Anubis is... some dude who hangs around the underworld, and runs, or used to run, a ferry service. I guess.

      He's the judge of the dead actually.

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    • Hulk10 wrote: He's the judge of the dead actually.

      Any idea what he might think of a vampire? Since Underworld vampires aren't undead, I'm not really sure why they would be interested in Anubis.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote: He's the judge of the dead actually.

      Any idea what he might think of a vampire? Since Underworld vampires aren't undead, I'm not really sure why they would be interested in Anubis.

      I think he'd probably not care about vampires or Lycans.

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    • Very interesting. This reminded me of a comment I found some time ago.

      "The "battle" between werewolf and vampire can extend back as far as B.C. A perfect example would be the story of Set and Osiris, two brothers in Egyptian Mythology. Set hated his brother who was ruler of the underworld and later immortal (after Isis put his body back together with the golden phallus). Set was represented in writings as being a wolf like creature and was a "moon god". The sensationalized version is purely from fiction but the "battle" does have historic ties."

      And some say that Osiris became a vampire after being ressurected and was the ruler of the dead/underworld.

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    • TrinityOverlord wrote: Very interesting. This reminded me of a comment I found some time ago.

      "The "battle" between werewolf and vampire can extend back as far as B.C. A perfect example would be the story of Set and Osiris, two brothers in Egyptian Mythology. Set hated his brother who was ruler of the underworld and later immortal (after Isis put his body back together with the golden phallus). Set was represented in writings as being a wolf like creature and was a "moon god". The sensationalized version is purely from fiction but the "battle" does have historic ties."

      And some say that Osiris became a vampire after being ressurected and was the ruler of the dead/underworld.

      Set actually was the God of Chaos and he had the head of an Aardvark.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote: Having just watched the 2010 reimagining of the Wolfman it reignited my fascination with hybrid's like Michael and makes me think that a hybrid like Michael could learn to run on all fours.

      I don't know... his hybrid form is pretty humanoid. I think to run on all fours, he would need a second, more wolflike hybrid form.

      http://www.tomspinadesigns.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Wolfman-2010-Werewolf-Movie-Costume-Display-Statue-1_1.jpg this is the wolfman from the 2010 movie and he looks very human like.

        Loading editor
    • Hulk10 wrote:

      TrinityOverlord wrote: Very interesting. This reminded me of a comment I found some time ago.

      "The "battle" between werewolf and vampire can extend back as far as B.C. A perfect example would be the story of Set and Osiris, two brothers in Egyptian Mythology. Set hated his brother who was ruler of the underworld and later immortal (after Isis put his body back together with the golden phallus). Set was represented in writings as being a wolf like creature and was a "moon god". The sensationalized version is purely from fiction but the "battle" does have historic ties."

      And some say that Osiris became a vampire after being ressurected and was the ruler of the dead/underworld.

      Set actually was the God of Chaos and he had the head of an Aardvark.

      Yes, I noticed that too, but then again, each of those egyptian deities have many different animal representations.

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    • Hulk10 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote: Having just watched the 2010 reimagining of the Wolfman it reignited my fascination with hybrid's like Michael and makes me think that a hybrid like Michael could learn to run on all fours.

      I don't know... his hybrid form is pretty humanoid. I think to run on all fours, he would need a second, more wolflike hybrid form.
      http://www.tomspinadesigns.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Wolfman-2010-Werewolf-Movie-Costume-Display-Statue-1_1.jpg this is the wolfman from the 2010 movie and he looks very human like.

      Unfortunately, Michael doesn't have the canine shape legs/foot, which could help him run on all fours.

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    • TrinityOverlord wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote: Having just watched the 2010 reimagining of the Wolfman it reignited my fascination with hybrid's like Michael and makes me think that a hybrid like Michael could learn to run on all fours.

      I don't know... his hybrid form is pretty humanoid. I think to run on all fours, he would need a second, more wolflike hybrid form.
      http://www.tomspinadesigns.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Wolfman-2010-Werewolf-Movie-Costume-Display-Statue-1_1.jpg this is the wolfman from the 2010 movie and he looks very human like.

      Unfortunately, Michael doesn't have the canine shape legs/foot, which could help him run on all fours.

      Not without longer arms it wouldn't. Which is why I like the idea Michael having a form that resembles Marius's hybrid form.

        Loading editor
    • Yellowantphil wrote:
      I had a thought: Lord Clovis seemed to be religious and mentioned the "living will of Anubis". Anubis is (according to Wikipedia) the Egyptian god of embalming and the afterlife, and lord of the underworld (among other things). The Nordic cocooning process reminds me of Egyptian mummification.

      Is it possible that the lake next to the Nordic Castle was blessed by Anubis? That could explain why Lena ceremonially wraps bodies of apparently deceased vampires and places them in the water. They die, are ushered to the underworld by Anubis, and then return.

      The odd thing here is that Anubis is depicted with a canine head. But perhaps vampire priests (??) taught that that was an inaccurate portrayal of their god, and that he had some other form, like that of a bat.

      The Rise of the Lycans novelization makes a brief reference to the "dark gods"--it seems like Anubis would qualify. We've seen very little religious content in the series, but I wonder if some of the vampires are polytheistic and worship Anubis as their primary god.

      Although that would make Lena's acceptance of the title of Elder odd, since it presumably means that she'll stop being a sort of priestess of Anubis and start being a politician. But maybe she intends to introduce devotion to Anubis at the Eastern Coven.

      Tbh, for the Nordic Coven at least, I would've though it more likely that they followed the old Norse religion. The cocooning thing would sort of make sense (just about) in relation to the Norse burial rituals. In Norse religion the reason that most people were cremated was to prevent them from returning to the Earth after their death. Interestingly some versions of the Norse Draugr do have some similarities with Vampires. So, theoretically, if fire stops someone from returning then it's exact opposite, water, should bring them back. The actual act of coccooing them in wet cloth could simply be the easiest and most practical way to keep the bodies wet/damp without actually submerging them (especially if the wrappings are already infused with preservative herbs; it could also link to the idea that a corpse could only come back from the dead in the same way that it entered (ie though the same door) so, by wrapping them in wet cloth the Nordic Coven could be trying to ensure that they are able to come back at all.

      A connection to Norse Mythology would also make sense with the names we have in connection to the Nordic Coven (both characters and the actual location) as most appear to be of roughly Scandinavian origin; Vidar even shares his name with Odin's son who's destined to avenge his father's death by killing the giant wolf Fenrir (son of Loki) during Ragnarok :)

        Loading editor
    • TrinityOverlord wrote:
      Hulk10 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote:


      Hulk10 wrote: Having just watched the 2010 reimagining of the Wolfman it reignited my fascination with hybrid's like Michael and makes me think that a hybrid like Michael could learn to run on all fours.

      I don't know... his hybrid form is pretty humanoid. I think to run on all fours, he would need a second, more wolflike hybrid form.
      http://www.tomspinadesigns.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Wolfman-2010-Werewolf-Movie-Costume-Display-Statue-1_1.jpg this is the wolfman from the 2010 movie and he looks very human like.
      Unfortunately, Michael doesn't have the canine shape legs/foot, which could help him run on all fours.

      He probably could, technically, run on all fours, just not very well :P

        Loading editor
    • Rockchick 19 wrote:

      TrinityOverlord wrote:
      Hulk10 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote:


      Hulk10 wrote: Having just watched the 2010 reimagining of the Wolfman it reignited my fascination with hybrid's like Michael and makes me think that a hybrid like Michael could learn to run on all fours.

      I don't know... his hybrid form is pretty humanoid. I think to run on all fours, he would need a second, more wolflike hybrid form.
      http://www.tomspinadesigns.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Wolfman-2010-Werewolf-Movie-Costume-Display-Statue-1_1.jpg this is the wolfman from the 2010 movie and he looks very human like.
      Unfortunately, Michael doesn't have the canine shape legs/foot, which could help him run on all fours.

      He probably could, technically, run on all fours, just not very well :P

      I recommend you guys watch the Wolfman its not very scary.

        Loading editor
    • Rockchick 19 wrote: Tbh, for the Nordic Coven at least, I would've though it more likely that they followed the old Norse religion. The cocooning thing would sort of make sense (just about) in relation to the Norse burial rituals. In Norse religion the reason that most people were cremated was to prevent them from returning to the Earth after their death. Interestingly some versions of the Norse Draugr do have some similarities with Vampires. So, theoretically, if fire stops someone from returning then it's exact opposite, water, should bring them back. The actual act of coccooing them in wet cloth could simply be the easiest and most practical way to keep the bodies wet/damp without actually submerging them (especially if the wrappings are already infused with preservative herbs; it could also link to the idea that a corpse could only come back from the dead in the same way that it entered (ie though the same door) so, by wrapping them in wet cloth the Nordic Coven could be trying to ensure that they are able to come back at all.

      A connection to Norse Mythology would also make sense with the names we have in connection to the Nordic Coven (both characters and the actual location) as most appear to be of roughly Scandinavian origin; Vidar even shares his name with Odin's son who's destined to avenge his father's death by killing the giant wolf Fenrir (son of Loki) during Ragnarok :)

      OK, cool. That's even better. :D

      Do you think there was anything special about the water from their lake? If resurrection were as simple as wrapping a dead vampire in a wet towel, then anybody could do it, and there goes the mystical nature of the Nordic Coven.

      Wikipedia tells me that draugrism (?) is infectious. What if that lake has algae or something carrying the draugrism virus? I'd prefer a spiritual explanation for the lake, but draugr seem a bit too prone to resurrect. I feel like we're getting set up for a Resident Evil crossover now. :p

      And this is off-topic, but speaking of draugr... my character in Skyrim got infected with vampirism yesterday. It's great. :D "Your blood boils and your vampiric powers awaken..."

        Loading editor
    • Hulk10 wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      TrinityOverlord wrote:
      Hulk10 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote:


      Hulk10 wrote: Having just watched the 2010 reimagining of the Wolfman it reignited my fascination with hybrid's like Michael and makes me think that a hybrid like Michael could learn to run on all fours.

      I don't know... his hybrid form is pretty humanoid. I think to run on all fours, he would need a second, more wolflike hybrid form.
      http://www.tomspinadesigns.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Wolfman-2010-Werewolf-Movie-Costume-Display-Statue-1_1.jpg this is the wolfman from the 2010 movie and he looks very human like.
      Unfortunately, Michael doesn't have the canine shape legs/foot, which could help him run on all fours.
      He probably could, technically, run on all fours, just not very well :P
      I recommend you guys watch the Wolfman its not very scary.

      I watched it a few years ago, definitely not that scary.

      I thought that you hated the wolfman style werewolves?

        Loading editor
    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: Tbh, for the Nordic Coven at least, I would've though it more likely that they followed the old Norse religion. The cocooning thing would sort of make sense (just about) in relation to the Norse burial rituals. In Norse religion the reason that most people were cremated was to prevent them from returning to the Earth after their death. Interestingly some versions of the Norse Draugr do have some similarities with Vampires. So, theoretically, if fire stops someone from returning then it's exact opposite, water, should bring them back. The actual act of coccooing them in wet cloth could simply be the easiest and most practical way to keep the bodies wet/damp without actually submerging them (especially if the wrappings are already infused with preservative herbs; it could also link to the idea that a corpse could only come back from the dead in the same way that it entered (ie though the same door) so, by wrapping them in wet cloth the Nordic Coven could be trying to ensure that they are able to come back at all.

      A connection to Norse Mythology would also make sense with the names we have in connection to the Nordic Coven (both characters and the actual location) as most appear to be of roughly Scandinavian origin; Vidar even shares his name with Odin's son who's destined to avenge his father's death by killing the giant wolf Fenrir (son of Loki) during Ragnarok :)

      OK, cool. That's even better. :D

      Do you think there was anything special about the water from their lake? If resurrection were as simple as wrapping a dead vampire in a wet towel, then anybody could do it, and there goes the mystical nature of the Nordic Coven.

      Wikipedia tells me that draugrism (?) is infectious. What if that lake has algae or something carrying the draugrism virus? I'd prefer a spiritual explanation for the lake, but draugr seem a bit too prone to resurrect. I feel like we're getting set up for a Resident Evil crossover now. :p

      And this is off-topic, but speaking of draugr... my character in Skyrim got infected with vampirism yesterday. It's great. :D "Your blood boils and your vampiric powers awaken..."

      I would guess that there has to be something in the lake water, whether it's algae or some kind of harmless bacteria that interacts strangely with the Vampire Virus, as opposed to carrying another virus. However, I would also say that there probably is some kind of mental component to it as well, even if thats just accepting death to a point where the Vampire is basically calm enough to allow the bacteria to revive them/upgrade their abilities rather than fighting it, in which case Selene probably just got lucky (sort of) that she was already in such a bad way that her mind was in the right state to allow her to be revived. If nothing else, it was implied that 'becoming' was something that not every Vampire could do (for one reason or another). Please no Resident Evil crossover though :P

      Normal Vampirism or Vampire Lord Vampirism? I normally play as a Vampire Lord :) If you're interested in mods there are several that change the mechanisms of Vampirism; so far the best one I've found is one that reverses the stages so that you're forced/you'd be stupid not to feed on people rather than getting more powerful by not feeding :)

        Loading editor
    • Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      TrinityOverlord wrote:
      Hulk10 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote:


      Hulk10 wrote: Having just watched the 2010 reimagining of the Wolfman it reignited my fascination with hybrid's like Michael and makes me think that a hybrid like Michael could learn to run on all fours.

      I don't know... his hybrid form is pretty humanoid. I think to run on all fours, he would need a second, more wolflike hybrid form.
      http://www.tomspinadesigns.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Wolfman-2010-Werewolf-Movie-Costume-Display-Statue-1_1.jpg this is the wolfman from the 2010 movie and he looks very human like.
      Unfortunately, Michael doesn't have the canine shape legs/foot, which could help him run on all fours.
      He probably could, technically, run on all fours, just not very well :P
      I recommend you guys watch the Wolfman its not very scary.

      I watched it a few years ago, definitely not that scary.

      I thought that you hated the wolfman style werewolves?

      I do, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate the film.

        Loading editor
    • Rockchick 19 wrote:

      I would guess that there has to be something in the lake water, whether it's algae or some kind of harmless bacteria that interacts strangely with the Vampire Virus, as opposed to carrying another virus. However, I would also say that there probably is some kind of mental component to it as well, even if thats just accepting death to a point where the Vampire is basically calm enough to allow the bacteria to revive them/upgrade their abilities rather than fighting it, in which case Selene probably just got lucky (sort of) that she was already in such a bad way that her mind was in the right state to allow her to be revived. If nothing else, it was implied that 'becoming' was something that not every Vampire could do (for one reason or another). Please no Resident Evil crossover though :P

      That makes sense, but then where do they go in between death and resurrection? Or do they go anywhere? The Vision Transformation card in the game makes me think that they see visions, and some of the things Lena said made it sound like they went somewhere, but then we never saw a vision in the film. :-/

      Normal Vampirism or Vampire Lord Vampirism? I normally play as a Vampire Lord :) If you're interested in mods there are several that change the mechanisms of Vampirism; so far the best one I've found is one that reverses the stages so that you're forced/you'd be stupid not to feed on people rather than getting more powerful by not feeding :)

      Normal vampirism for now. I heard that Serana has some different dialog when you first unearth her if you're already a vampire, so I wanted to be turned before I went to find her. My character actually got infected a couple times previously, but I cured it before it progressed to vampirism because I wanted to fight the civil war in daylight. That's over now (which has practically no effect on the country ಠ_ಠ), so I'll join the Volkihar clan soon. :D

      I have the Better Vampires mod, which has an option to do a reverse progression. I use the normal progression though. Lord Harkon has kind of a lot of dialog explaining the normal progression, so that seems like the lore-friendly option. Besides that, I like the dilemma of choosing to feed or not feed. If you feed, you have fewer powers but your weaknesses are less severe, and if you don't feed, you have greater powers but you're starving in a world full of tasty mortals. Although the Better Vampires mod gives you extra powers after a certain number of feedings, so there's an incentive to feed as often as possible.

      My character got caught outside in daylight yesterday, but fortunately, I knew the Storm Call shout, so I called down a terrible thunderstorm to hide me from the sun. :D

        Loading editor
    • Hulk10 wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:


      TrinityOverlord wrote:
      Hulk10 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote:



      Hulk10 wrote: Having just watched the 2010 reimagining of the Wolfman it reignited my fascination with hybrid's like Michael and makes me think that a hybrid like Michael could learn to run on all fours.

      I don't know... his hybrid form is pretty humanoid. I think to run on all fours, he would need a second, more wolflike hybrid form.
      http://www.tomspinadesigns.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Wolfman-2010-Werewolf-Movie-Costume-Display-Statue-1_1.jpg this is the wolfman from the 2010 movie and he looks very human like.
      Unfortunately, Michael doesn't have the canine shape legs/foot, which could help him run on all fours.
      He probably could, technically, run on all fours, just not very well :P
      I recommend you guys watch the Wolfman its not very scary.
      I watched it a few years ago, definitely not that scary.

      I thought that you hated the wolfman style werewolves?

      I do, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate the film.

      I just meant that I was a little surprised that you'd watched it knowing that you don't like the style of werewolf that is literally the title of the film :P

        Loading editor
    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      I would guess that there has to be something in the lake water, whether it's algae or some kind of harmless bacteria that interacts strangely with the Vampire Virus, as opposed to carrying another virus. However, I would also say that there probably is some kind of mental component to it as well, even if thats just accepting death to a point where the Vampire is basically calm enough to allow the bacteria to revive them/upgrade their abilities rather than fighting it, in which case Selene probably just got lucky (sort of) that she was already in such a bad way that her mind was in the right state to allow her to be revived. If nothing else, it was implied that 'becoming' was something that not every Vampire could do (for one reason or another). Please no Resident Evil crossover though :P

      That makes sense, but then where do they go in between death and resurrection? Or do they go anywhere? The Vision Transformation card in the game makes me think that they see visions, and some of the things Lena said made it sound like they went somewhere, but then we never saw a vision in the film. :-/

      It's possible that the algae or bacteria or whatever is in the water keeps them hovering between life and death and may have hallucinogenic properties that induces some kind of vision with the white hair being some kind of side effect. Tbf, there were several things that are mentioned in the card game or graphic novel that they could've done with expanding upon or at least mentioning in the film but didn't :/

        Loading editor
    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Normal Vampirism or Vampire Lord Vampirism? I normally play as a Vampire Lord :) If you're interested in mods there are several that change the mechanisms of Vampirism; so far the best one I've found is one that reverses the stages so that you're forced/you'd be stupid not to feed on people rather than getting more powerful by not feeding :)
      Normal vampirism for now. I heard that Serana has some different dialog when you first unearth her if you're already a vampire, so I wanted to be turned before I went to find her. My character actually got infected a couple times previously, but I cured it before it progressed to vampirism because I wanted to fight the civil war in daylight. That's over now (which has practically no effect on the country ಠ_ಠ), so I'll join the Volkihar clan soon. :D

      I have the Better Vampires mod, which has an option to do a reverse progression. I use the normal progression though. Lord Harkon has kind of a lot of dialog explaining the normal progression, so that seems like the lore-friendly option. Besides that, I like the dilemma of choosing to feed or not feed. If you feed, you have fewer powers but your weaknesses are less severe, and if you don't feed, you have greater powers but you're starving in a world full of tasty mortals. Although the Better Vampires mod gives you extra powers after a certain number of feedings, so there's an incentive to feed as often as possible.

      My character got caught outside in daylight yesterday, but fortunately, I knew the Storm Call shout, so I called down a terrible thunderstorm to hide me from the sun. :D

      Can't comment of different dialogue, I've heard the same as you but never actually tested it for myself; as I understand it there are a couple of small differences to her dialogue and to Lord Harkon's but not much. Yeah, the civil war plotline could've been better handled in regards to the effects on the rest of the game :/

      As much as I like the normal progession I found that the weaknesses from not feeding were minimal enough that I could easily compensate with potions, acessories etc so there was no real incentive to have my character feed; admittedly I don't adjust my play style for the sakes of role playing like you've said before that you do, I'm one of the kinds of player whose character sleeps like once every three or four months and basically never eats (even before they become a Vampire) :P

        Loading editor
    • Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:


      TrinityOverlord wrote:
      Hulk10 wrote:

      Yellowantphil wrote:



      Hulk10 wrote: Having just watched the 2010 reimagining of the Wolfman it reignited my fascination with hybrid's like Michael and makes me think that a hybrid like Michael could learn to run on all fours.

      I don't know... his hybrid form is pretty humanoid. I think to run on all fours, he would need a second, more wolflike hybrid form.
      http://www.tomspinadesigns.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Wolfman-2010-Werewolf-Movie-Costume-Display-Statue-1_1.jpg this is the wolfman from the 2010 movie and he looks very human like.
      Unfortunately, Michael doesn't have the canine shape legs/foot, which could help him run on all fours.
      He probably could, technically, run on all fours, just not very well :P
      I recommend you guys watch the Wolfman its not very scary.
      I watched it a few years ago, definitely not that scary.

      I thought that you hated the wolfman style werewolves?

      I do, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate the film.

      I just meant that I was a little surprised that you'd watched it knowing that you don't like the style of werewolf that is literally the title of the film :P

      Well I was bored and intrigued to know more about the plot.

        Loading editor
    • Rockchick 19 wrote: As much as I like the normal progession I found that the weaknesses from not feeding were minimal enough that I could easily compensate with potions, acessories etc so there was no real incentive to have my character feed; admittedly I don't adjust my play style for the sakes of role playing like you've said before that you do, I'm one of the kinds of player whose character sleeps like once every three or four months and basically never eats (even before they become a Vampire) :P

      Hmm, yes, I suppose the weakness to fire isn't that bad since you can compensate for it with enchanted gear. I have an enchanted necklace and cloak that both confer fire resistance, so that more than makes up for the 30% weakness to fire when fully fed. Maybe that doesn't make much sense, but I hate getting cooked by those pesky fire dragons. :p Even as a mortal, the ice dragons aren't that bad, since my character's Nord blood gives me frost resistance, but fire dragons are trouble.

        Loading editor
    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote: As much as I like the normal progession I found that the weaknesses from not feeding were minimal enough that I could easily compensate with potions, acessories etc so there was no real incentive to have my character feed; admittedly I don't adjust my play style for the sakes of role playing like you've said before that you do, I'm one of the kinds of player whose character sleeps like once every three or four months and basically never eats (even before they become a Vampire) :P

      Hmm, yes, I suppose the weakness to fire isn't that bad since you can compensate for it with enchanted gear. I have an enchanted necklace and cloak that both confer fire resistance, so that more than makes up for the 30% weakness to fire when fully fed. Maybe that doesn't make much sense, but I hate getting cooked by those pesky fire dragons. :p Even as a mortal, the ice dragons aren't that bad, since my character's Nord blood gives me frost resistance, but fire dragons are trouble.

      Lol, I have the exact same issue as I play as a Nord as well; as a Vampire Lord the frost dragons don't really do any damages at all but a short blast of flames from a fire dragon is enough to finish me off :/ My strategy tends to involve a couple of 20%-30% fire resistance potions and if necessary distracting the dragon with other people (especially Serana who I use as a follower because her primary attack is an ice bolt and she's classed as essential so there's no danger of her actually dying, though city guards work too in a pinch) :)

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote:
      Lol, I have the exact same issue as I play as a Nord as well; as a Vampire Lord the frost dragons don't really do any damages at all but a short blast of flames from a fire dragon is enough to finish me off :/ My strategy tends to involve a couple of 20%-30% fire resistance potions and if necessary distracting the dragon with other people (especially Serana who I use as a follower because her primary attack is an ice bolt and she's classed as essential so there's no danger of her actually dying, though city guards work too in a pinch) :)

      Yeah, I always make my followers essential (using mods or the console). I really don't want to deal with everybody who likes me in the game winding up dead. :-|

      I decided to use the console to give myself an extra 25% weakness to fire... maybe that won't be quite so overpowered. I realize that that probably makes me weird. :p

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:
      Lol, I have the exact same issue as I play as a Nord as well; as a Vampire Lord the frost dragons don't really do any damages at all but a short blast of flames from a fire dragon is enough to finish me off :/ My strategy tends to involve a couple of 20%-30% fire resistance potions and if necessary distracting the dragon with other people (especially Serana who I use as a follower because her primary attack is an ice bolt and she's classed as essential so there's no danger of her actually dying, though city guards work too in a pinch) :)

      Yeah, I always make my followers essential (using mods or the console). I really don't want to deal with everybody who likes me in the game winding up dead. :-|

      I decided to use the console to give myself an extra 25% weakness to fire... maybe that won't be quite so overpowered. I realize that that probably makes me weird. :p

      I just get fed up of them dying because they're stupid enough to wander between me and whoever I'm fighting :/

      I play on an Xbox One so I've only been able to use mods since I got the Special Edition (not to mention that I only got around to setting up a Bethesda account to download the mods about a week ago) and I still don't have access to the console :/ 

      Yes, deliberately making your character more vulnerable would generally considered to be slightly weird :P

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: I just get fed up of them dying because they're stupid enough to wander between me and whoever I'm fighting :/

      I play on an Xbox One so I've only been able to use mods since I got the Special Edition (not to mention that I only got around to setting up a Bethesda account to download the mods about a week ago) and I still don't have access to the console :/ 

      Yes, deliberately making your character more vulnerable would generally considered to be slightly weird :P

      Soooooooooo... I already gave up on that extra 25% weakness to fire. I got tired of getting cooked by every random fire mage.

      I just made a mod that made it so that you can wait/sleep anywhere, instead of getting that "you cannot sleep here" message. But after seeing how easily it conflicts with other mods, I don't think I'll upload anywhere. In the vanishingly small chance that you are interested, let me know and I'll see if I can figure out how to create a mod for Xbox. :D

      I just tried to sleep on some bedrolls that I brought into Alftand Cathedral, and it said that I couldn't sleep there. Well, why not?! So I fixed that...

      Maybe we should make a Skyrim thread, or head to the Elder Scrolls forums or something. :p At least we're talking about vampires, so that's almost on topic.

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    • Does it count that I've honestly been thinking about making a whole neighborhood in Sims that's completely Underworld. Including making gothic houses and the characters.

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    • FunnyBunnies wrote:
      Does it count that I've honestly been thinking about making a whole neighborhood in Sims that's completely Underworld. Including making gothic houses and the characters.

      That sounds awesome :D Which Sims game? If you've got Sims 3 there's a gothic neighbourhood that you can buy (Midnight Hollow), it's pretty good (I play on a Mac so I haven't got access to the world building tool and have to stick with neighbourhoods that I can buy or download) :) modthesims.info has some pretty good mods, including clothing, for Sims 2, 3 and 4 as well :)

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote:
      FunnyBunnies wrote:
      Does it count that I've honestly been thinking about making a whole neighborhood in Sims that's completely Underworld. Including making gothic houses and the characters.
      That sounds awesome :D Which Sims game? If you've got Sims 3 there's a gothic neighbourhood that you can buy (Midnight Hollow), it's pretty good (I play on a Mac so I haven't got access to the world building tool and have to stick with neighbourhoods that I can buy or download) :) modthesims.info has some pretty good mods, including clothing, for Sims 2, 3 and 4 as well :)

      Sims 3 of course. I don't really play much myself. I just tend to make Sims and houses/objects for my friends children. But an Underworld neighborhood just for me I have thought about. Have the vampires on one side of the map, lycans on the other and normal people in the middle (since it would be a fully normal city like in the first movie). For the vampires I wanted to create giant covens, just have to figure out who to put where. For the lycans I would create underground quaters (can't really do sewers in Sims but can make them look like it).

      It would probably take forever though to make.

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    • FunnyBunnies wrote:
      Rockchick 19 wrote:
      FunnyBunnies wrote:
      Does it count that I've honestly been thinking about making a whole neighborhood in Sims that's completely Underworld. Including making gothic houses and the characters.
      That sounds awesome :D Which Sims game? If you've got Sims 3 there's a gothic neighbourhood that you can buy (Midnight Hollow), it's pretty good (I play on a Mac so I haven't got access to the world building tool and have to stick with neighbourhoods that I can buy or download) :) modthesims.info has some pretty good mods, including clothing, for Sims 2, 3 and 4 as well :)
      Sims 3 of course. I don't really play much myself. I just tend to make Sims and houses/objects for my friends children. But an Underworld neighborhood just for me I have thought about. Have the vampires on one side of the map, lycans on the other and normal people in the middle (since it would be a fully normal city like in the first movie). For the vampires I wanted to create giant covens, just have to figure out who to put where. For the lycans I would create underground quaters (can't really do sewers in Sims but can make them look like it).

      It would probably take forever though to make.

      It would definitely take a while, if you were planning on making large covens/hordes then you'd probably need to download a mod that allows for households of more than eight (I believe that both AwesomeMod and Twallen's Master Controller would work).

      I would've thought that your best bet in regards to Vampire Coven's would be the Old World Coven from ROTL (Sonja, the original council, Marcus etc), the Budapest Coven from Underworld/Evolution (Erika, Kraven, Selene, Kahn etc), the Eastern Coven (Semira, Varga, Cassius etc) and Nordic Coven (Vidar and Lena) from Blood Wars, maybe the New World Coven (Amelia and her council?) (even though we haven't actually seen it) and then possibly Thomas' Coven (Thomas, David etc) as well :)

      Creating the underground quarters probably wouldn't be too bad, you just might want to use the console and the 'buydebug' cheat to get access to the sunlight emitter ( in the '?' menu) things to get the effect of light coming through drains etc on the surface rather than using artificail lighting :)

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    • I think making the properties would take a while but could be done in reasonable time. What would take forever though would be making the actual Sims so they look at least partially like the actual people.

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    • It would be fun to dabble in figuring out how additional forms for lycan/vampire hybrids like Michael would look.

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    • Rockchick 19 said:
      Lol, I do love all of the Underworld references in the Elder Scrolls series; I mean the Volkihar Vampire Clan in Skyrim is basically the Old World Coven, complete with Selene/Serana and Lord Harkon aka some kind of weird mix of Viktor and Marcus; the first quest associated with them is even called Awakening :)

      I finally got around to accepting Lord Harkon's gift. I hadn't noticed it before, but now I see a lot of similarities between Harkon and Viktor. And Harkon has Marcus's hybrid form. And from the UESP page on Lord Harkon, he even hates werewolves. If you're a werewolf, he says, "the power of my blood will purge that filth and make you whole again."

      Serana's dialog when you first meet her as a vampire is great, and in line with her initial sassy attitude. She said this gem, among other things: "are you one of my father's little acolytes?"

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    • In Underworld evolution michael recovered due to his regenerative abilities even after being fatally wounded, he survived a bomb blast i am 99% sure he can survive a little blood loss .

      Unless marius disposed his body which is highly unlikely since he left selene without disassembling her body

      I think eve found her dad as she has Sensory Synchronization shown in the end of awakening and later visits her mother at the end of blood wars.

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    • 202.91.77.118 wrote:
      In Underworld evolution michael recovered due to his regenerative abilities even after being fatally wounded, he survived a bomb blast i am 99% sure he can survive a little blood loss .

      Unless marius disposed his body which is highly unlikely since he left selene without disassembling her body

      I think eve found her dad as she has Sensory Synchronization shown in the end of awakening and later visits her mother at the end of blood wars.

      The problem is that Michael would need a certain amount of blood to still be in his body in order to regenerate. Without any blood to carry oxygen to his brain his brain wouldn't be capable of sending signals to the rest of his body telling it to regenerate. Even with Michael's Hybrid nature he wouldn't be able to replenish his blood quickly enough to compensate for the blood loss. It seems to be fairly well established in this franchise that the only way to kill an immortal is to interupt the signals between their brain and the rest of the body, usually by decapitation, but the amount of blood loss Michael experienced in the flashback would likely be just as effective.

      Marius probably would've dispposed of Michael's body in some way, if for no other reason than to avoid the risk of a police investigation (as Michael didn't appear to be in his Hybrid form when he was killed). He couldn't dispose of Selene's body because she deliberately moved a slab of ice so that her body would slide into the lake and he had no way to get to her, besides, even if she hadn't there isn't exactly a lot of risk to him (in regards to a police investigation or similar) since Var Dohr is in the middle of nowhere. Selene's blood also doesn't appear to have interested him much (presumably because she doesn't posses any Lycan DNA, unlike Michael and Eve)

      While Eve does appear to posses some form of Sensory Synchronization with her blood relatives I highly doubt that she found Michael in between the two films (even if you ignore his death), if she was willing to part ways from Selene in order to try and protect both of them it would be logical to assume that she would have the same attitude towards Michael and so wouldn't seek him out. Imho it seemed as though she only reunited with Selene at the end of Blood Wars because the danger had passed (at least for now) and Var Dohr is remote enough that both of them are relatively safe there.

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    • I know that it was discussed but are we going with 'Vador' or 'Var Dohr' as the correct spelling for the the Nordic Coven's fortress?

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote: I know that it was discussed but are we going with 'Vador' or 'Var Dohr' as the correct spelling for the the Nordic Coven's fortress?

      Var Dohr, based on the spelling in the game and the comic. I just moved the cocooning ritual page to use that spelling. Let's hope that the DVD subtitles use the same spelling...

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    • Rockchick 19 wrote:

      202.91.77.118 wrote:
      In Underworld evolution michael recovered due to his regenerative abilities even after being fatally wounded, he survived a bomb blast i am 99% sure he can survive a little blood loss .

      Unless marius disposed his body which is highly unlikely since he left selene without disassembling her body

      I think eve found her dad as she has Sensory Synchronization shown in the end of awakening and later visits her mother at the end of blood wars.

      The problem is that Michael would need a certain amount of blood to still be in his body in order to regenerate. Without any blood to carry oxygen to his brain his brain wouldn't be capable of sending signals to the rest of his body telling it to regenerate. Even with Michael's Hybrid nature he wouldn't be able to replenish his blood quickly enough to compensate for the blood loss. It seems to be fairly well established in this franchise that the only way to kill an immortal is to interupt the signals between their brain and the rest of the body, usually by decapitation, but the amount of blood loss Michael experienced in the flashback would likely be just as effective.

      Marius probably would've dispposed of Michael's body in some way, if for no other reason than to avoid the risk of a police investigation (as Michael didn't appear to be in his Hybrid form when he was killed). He couldn't dispose of Selene's body because she deliberately moved a slab of ice so that her body would slide into the lake and he had no way to get to her, besides, even if she hadn't there isn't exactly a lot of risk to him (in regards to a police investigation or similar) since Var Dohr is in the middle of nowhere. Selene's blood also doesn't appear to have interested him much (presumably because she doesn't posses any Lycan DNA, unlike Michael and Eve)

      While Eve does appear to posses some form of Sensory Synchronization with her blood relatives I highly doubt that she found Michael in between the two films (even if you ignore his death), if she was willing to part ways from Selene in order to try and protect both of them it would be logical to assume that she would have the same attitude towards Michael and so wouldn't seek him out. Imho it seemed as though she only reunited with Selene at the end of Blood Wars because the danger had passed (at least for now) and Var Dohr is remote enough that both of them are relatively safe there.

      Need I remind you that Michael's heart was destroyed when Marcus impaled him on the pier pylon and he should have lost all his blood? Seriously, think about the events in Evolution.

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    • Hulk10 wrote:

      Rockchick 19 wrote:

      202.91.77.118 wrote:
      In Underworld evolution michael recovered due to his regenerative abilities even after being fatally wounded, he survived a bomb blast i am 99% sure he can survive a little blood loss .

      Unless marius disposed his body which is highly unlikely since he left selene without disassembling her body

      I think eve found her dad as she has Sensory Synchronization shown in the end of awakening and later visits her mother at the end of blood wars.

      The problem is that Michael would need a certain amount of blood to still be in his body in order to regenerate. Without any blood to carry oxygen to his brain his brain wouldn't be capable of sending signals to the rest of his body telling it to regenerate. Even with Michael's Hybrid nature he wouldn't be able to replenish his blood quickly enough to compensate for the blood loss. It seems to be fairly well established in this franchise that the only way to kill an immortal is to interupt the signals between their brain and the rest of the body, usually by decapitation, but the amount of blood loss Michael experienced in the flashback would likely be just as effective.

      Marius probably would've dispposed of Michael's body in some way, if for no other reason than to avoid the risk of a police investigation (as Michael didn't appear to be in his Hybrid form when he was killed). He couldn't dispose of Selene's body because she deliberately moved a slab of ice so that her body would slide into the lake and he had no way to get to her, besides, even if she hadn't there isn't exactly a lot of risk to him (in regards to a police investigation or similar) since Var Dohr is in the middle of nowhere. Selene's blood also doesn't appear to have interested him much (presumably because she doesn't posses any Lycan DNA, unlike Michael and Eve)

      While Eve does appear to posses some form of Sensory Synchronization with her blood relatives I highly doubt that she found Michael in between the two films (even if you ignore his death), if she was willing to part ways from Selene in order to try and protect both of them it would be logical to assume that she would have the same attitude towards Michael and so wouldn't seek him out. Imho it seemed as though she only reunited with Selene at the end of Blood Wars because the danger had passed (at least for now) and Var Dohr is remote enough that both of them are relatively safe there.

      Need I remind you that Michael's heart was destroyed when Marcus impaled him on the pier pylon and he should have lost all his blood? Seriously, think about the events in Evolution.

      See my reply on the other thread regarding the differences in the two situations

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    • So I finally saw the movie. Damn my friends for picking this for movie night and not telling me. Is it better than Awakening? Yes. But since watching paint dry is better than Awakening that's not saying much.

      This movie is better than Awakening for one reason alone, Semira. Now there is a good villain. Only to then get possibly the dumbest death in this whole franchise. What the hell?!?! But since she was 'killed' in the same manner as Lucian 'killed' Viktor (only in reverse) I pretend she eventually will be up and running again.

      Marius was totally and utterly forgettable. Just like the lycan big bads of Awakening. And he was a giant moron to boot.

      Aside from Semira the whole movie has the same problems as Awakening. Plot is lacking as all get out. Too many characters who completely lack backstories. What's the story with Marius and his vampire lover? No answer to find in this movie. But more importantly, what the hell happened between Eve and Selene? They were fine at the end of Awakening and even though no time frame is given...for Eve to flat out tell Selene to never consider herself a mother. Hello!!! I need some backstory here people.

      The whole Thomas/Amelia/David thing still makes little sense. The Amelia from the Evo flashback (our biggest exposure to the character thus far) always reminded me of a female Viktor. She would not have a child and even if she did she wouldn't care about it's safety. Same thing with the whole Viktor/Semira/Selene deal, which makes no sense timeline-wise. And Selene was never Regent.

      Selene seemed weaker through the whole movie before her transformation. Like pre-Evo weak. Varga almost matched her. Marius threw her around like Quint did yet against Quint that was no problem and with Marius she is pretty much down for the count after 3 throws. Alexia runs a sword through Selene and Marius adds a few bullets and Selene is 'dead'. What? Marcus impaled her through the heart in Evo and it didn't bother her, neither did bullets in Awakening. A little consistency would be nice people.

      Varga killed a good dozen vampires and poisened Selene herself after which she vowed to kill him. Why is he still alive at the end of the movie? WTF.

      The lycans were slaughtering the Nordic vamps at their castle yet during the end fight they were evenly matched. Huh? And Lena could teleport, could have teleported herself behind the lycan and just killed him but no, like Eve in Awakening she has to have her butt saved by the knight in shining armor also known as David. Seriously? We have hit this beat already.

      If this is the end of Selene's story then I reject it. I'm not against her becoming an elder. But that is not full circle. The war over, her a leader with her loved ones by her side and her a different person...sure. But this was BS. Oh I forgot, David is all the family she needs. *barf* She didn't even get Eve back because their 'reunion' was clearly in the Sacred World. But if she can imagine Eve with her there, why not Michael? Oh right I forgot, who cares about that guy anyway.

      Everything I said in regards to Michael/Speedman over the past few months still stands even after seeing it.

      My fave fight was definitely Semira vs David. Beautiful and damn did that woman kick ass. She was owning him royally. Until she was hit with the dumbstick and 'died'. Urgh.

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    • I think Michael still matters

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    • I just saw Blood Wars :)  but been reading a lot about it before.

      Sorry folks to ask this question but reading on here about Lena, when did she get Selene's blood? Was it at the end?

      The movie was good and much better than Awakening, I still Evolution and then the Original.

      Why are all the Vampires refer to Michael as a Lycan? Yes I agree that Selene fell inlove with Michael and they shared a damn kiss when he was still a Lycan, but they got together after he became a Hybrid.  It seems that the Vampires doesn't see him as a Hybrid OR a direct decendant of Alexander Corvinus!  He is no longer damn Lycan!  He is not like Marius or Quint.  But then again it seems that no Vampire has ever seen him that lived.

      Though it was entertianing there are lots of unanswered questions and it seems they rush through everything to try to put as much "story" as they can, went the climax of the movie right away there wasn't much build up or background story.

      Because of Michael's blood, I can see why Marius even with all the bullets, same with Michael after he just became a Hybrid when fighting Viktor he was sprayed with bullets, is still very strong almost stronger than Selene.  But their fight wasn't that exciting.

      David could have decapitate Samira, but I doubt she's dead. Which is fine, she would be a formidible enemy next time with Selene or David.

      As for Michael, I know there is another discussion about him.  But I think he is for sure still alive and I wouldn't be surprised that the his body was kept and now that the Lycan's has no longer a leader, they could revive Michael and hope to lead them.

      The end of the movie is still open ended... With Eve at the end and the Lyans sent home to "regroup", Micheal story. I could see Lena and David get together.

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    • I don’t think Lena ever got Selene’s blood. I’ve been meaning to edit our article on Lena so that it doesn’t definitively call her a hybrid.

      The story did feel rushed, especially in the lack of backstory.

      Lena + David... yeah, that might work. People keep talking about Selene + David, which makes no sense at all.

      I still need to order the DVD... I haven’t seen the film since January.

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    • Alright, just wondering if I missed Lena becoming a hybrid.

      Selene and David will not work, as we all know Selene is/was a cold hearted "bitch" lol until he met Michael and he was the only person she ever loved and still love.  David is more like a brother to Selene so it seems. Putting David and Selene together becomes a soap opera, this is not like the stupid Vampire/Warewolf movie Twilight.  This is more mature story...

      Oh and another thing too is that Thomas calling Eve a "half-Lycan" WTF! As I mentioned that everyone calls Michael a Lycan or Selene's Lycan Lover! He is a damn Hybrid, does anyone in the Vampire Coven know that?! Even Lena mentions that he's Lycan!

      The only thing they remembered was Selene helping Michael when he was a Lycan. So they didn't know that Selene bit him and turned him into Hybrid.  I guess they didn't expect it since no one ever surived being bitten by both species...

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    • Yeah Selene and David don't have chemistry.

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    • I’ll need to watch the film again to remember some of the stuff you’re mentioning. But yeah, the vampires do seem awfully particular about having nobody with lycan blood around.

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    • Saw I'm just checking the Awakening agian...

      When Thomas saw Eve's eyes he said to David, "look at her eyes he is not one of us".  Olivia even mentioned when she saw Eve's eyes she said "they do exists".

      So I think its because no one has ever since a Hybrid specifically Lycan-Vampire or even Vampire-Lycan Hybrid, even in Blood Wars Marius still predominantly looked like a Lycan.  Except for David no one saw Eve changed too.  For the Vampires they are a "myth".

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    • It makes sense for all the vampires to say he is a lycan. Semira actually reminds us in this movie why they are so rigid...that whole 'purity of race' rule. Funny though that Semira despises this rule considering her precious Viktor is the one who made it.

      I was surprised however that Lena would also use that word, considering the Nordic vampires are a different kind than the regular vamps themselves. But then Lena's whole speech is factually wrong in every way. Seriously can't these writers get anything right in these last 2 movies? When Lena was reading Selene she said: 'I can see you've loved a lycan, killed a vampire elder and given birth...'. Everything about that is wrong. She loved a hybrid, killed 2 elders and never gave birth. The nordic vamps need to work on their 'reading' skills, it seriously leaves a lot to be desired.

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    • Michael was a lycan for a few days, in between getting bitten and being turned into a hybrid, so Selene did love a lycan.

      She killed a vampire Elder. She also killed a second one. Still correct.

      She gave birth to Eve. Assumed in Awakening and confirmed in the narration of Blood Wars. They apparently didn't freeze her until after she gave birth. Maybe they just kept her in a coma.

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    • Yellowantphil wrote:
      Michael was a lycan for a few days, in between getting bitten and being turned into a hybrid, so Selene did love a lycan.

      She killed a vampire Elder. She also killed a second one. Still correct.

      She gave birth to Eve. Assumed in Awakening and confirmed in the narration of Blood Wars. They apparently didn't freeze her until after she gave birth. Maybe they just kept her in a coma.

      It's about fact checking. While it makes sense for the average vampire to classify Michael as a lycan (because of their purity rule), it makes no sense why the Nordic vamps would be so limited.

      When it comes to the 1 vs 2 elders killed it seems they went overboard correcting their mistake from Awakening. The vampires in the Eastern Coven can get away with it because as far as they know she killed only 1. But Lena could read Selene so she should have said the correct number. That's where the writers went wrong.

      As far as giving birth...I don't buy it. Selene wasn't visibly pregnant or even knew she was. Even if they kept her in a coma until they could remove the baby, Selene didn't know she had a child. So how could she possibly know that she gave birth to one?

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    • Perhaps Selene fall head of heels with Michael when he was a Lycan and the fact that he wasn't able to kill him even with Viktor's orders. She protected him when he was a Lycan and kissed him, she had a moment. But didn't even know she turned him?

      As for killing Marcus and William...Who the hell would know that?!?! There was nobody else there!!! Heck I would like to know how they left there, I assume they swam :)

      At the Coven, Alexander's guys cleaned up the Coven. So no one really knew about where and what happend to Marcus!

      Then in this movie (and Awakening) everyone knew about Selene killed 2 elders?!

      After Evolution Selene and Michael were on the run. They were not hanging out at a Coven or with Vampire friends.


      As for Selene giving birth, perhaps she was only say a month or so pregnant which she probably didn't realize until she was captured, they probably just did a C-section.


      Hopefully for the next movie I'd like to see Michael and Eve at the Coven and see everyone's reaction when they see them transform.

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    • Brimmski wrote: Then in this movie (and Awakening) everyone knew about Selene killed 2 elders?!

      No, in this one they corrected the mistake they made in Awakening (guess enough people complained about it). No one except Michael and Selene knew she had killed Marcus. While I appreciated that they corrected this mistake, they then also did it in a scene with Lena who could literally read Selene. Lena should have said she killed 2 elders, not one. That's what's bugging me.

      As for Selene giving birth, perhaps she was only say a month or so pregnant which she probably didn't realize until she was captured, they probably just did a C-section.

      The thing is Selene didn't know she had a child after she got out of cryo. Which means she never knew she was pregnant. So how would she then even know that she gave birth to anyone? Eve could have well been a test tube baby. If Selene knew she was pregnant, her having a child shouldn't have been a surprise to her in the first place. Selene could have only known she gave birth to a child if she knew she was pregnant to begin with. Which she clearly didn't.

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    • Was watching the 1st Underworld.

      Kraven mentioned that Selene was infatuated with Michael, I guess thats where it started her bing "in love" with a Lycan.

      The Vampires have a rule as per Erika when she told Selene about Michael being bitten by a Lycan that it was "forbidden".

      Hopefully they will not over play with the relationship between a Vampire and Lycan then having a kid!

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    • It still amazes me how stupid Marius' plan is, especially when he is in the same movie as the cunning smarty pants Semira.

      Considering that his search for either Selene or Eve could potentially last decades, why would he get rid of his power source? Whatever he was doing until he got either of them, he was clearly using Michael's blood during that time. He is after all on his last vial in his final fight with Selene. If his search had taken decades he would have run out sooner rather than later. But why even bother with the search for Eve? He had his vampire lover that could shut down security at the coven at any time. All he had to do then was attack them.

      Or he could have kept Michael alive and collect enough blood to give it to all the lycans in his pack. A hundred or less, all temporarily hyped up, could have wiped that coven out easy, even with it's defenses up.

      Seriously one of the dumbest villains to ever grace the big screen.

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